Re: Where to start?

From: Richard Heathfield (invalid_at_address.co.uk.invalid)
Date: 02/19/04 

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:33:45 +0000

Joe Peschel wrote:

> Richard Heathfield <invalid@address.co.uk.invalid> wrote in
> news:40335630@news2.power.net.uk:
>
>> Joe Peschel wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Interestingly, I disagree that the "traditional style" to which Mr
>>>> Gwyn refers /is/ traditional. I /think/ it was introduced by
>>>> American printing houses for a technical reason to do with the
>>>> fragility of type, although of course I could be mistaken about
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> I think you are mistaken.
>>
>> I tried to find some supporting evidence for this (since I really am
>> not just making it up), but I couldn't seem to find the right Google
>> incantation. I may look again this evening.
>>
>
> Good luck!

Thanks. I needed it. :-)

What follows is not proof, obviously, and it isn't intended to be proof. But
I hope it shows that I wasn't just making stuff up.

"When type was handset, a period or comma outside of quotation marks at the
end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position, so the printers
tucked the little devils inside the quotation marks to keep them safe and
out of trouble. But apparently only American printers were more attached
to convenience than logic, since British printers continued to risk the
misalignment of their periods and commas."
                      http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html

"There are peculiar typographical reasons why the period and comma go inside
the quotation mark in the United States. The following explanation comes
from the "Frequently Asked Questions" file of alt.english.usage: "In the
days when printing used raised bits of metal, "." and "," were the most
delicate, and were in danger of damage (the face of the piece of type might
break off from the body, or be bent or dented from above) if they had a '"'
on one side and a blank space on the other. Hence the convention arose of
always using '."' and ',"' rather than '".' and '",', regardless of logic."
This seems to be an argument to return to something more logical, but there
is little impetus to do so within the United States."
                 http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm

<snip>

>> I recall a book by, I think,
>> Joseph Conrad, in which the very first sentence started with "And", to
>> great dramatic effect. Conrad wasn't a native English speaker,
>
> Conrad was born in Poland and moved to England when he was 21, I think. Of
> the Conrad novels on my shelf, I found none that begin with "And."

Nor did I (online). Alas, I must be mixing him up with someone else. With no
title and no author to go on, my chances of finding the sentence are, of
course, zero.

<snip>

>>> I meant Gwyn should have edited his message a tad before he sent
>>> it.
>>
>> Well, my point is that we shouldn't necessarily have to be
>> word-perfect when composing Usenet articles. I know I make mistakes of
>> grammar, punctuation, and even (on occasion) spelling when writing
>> Usenet articles, and that doesn't even include typos. I wish I didn't,
>> but that's life. I can live with my level of inaccuracy, and so can
>> most readers. I suspect Mr Gwyn has much the same opinion.
>>
>
> I make mistakes, too, and I can bear my level of inaccuracy, but Gwyn
> often tries to appear expert on just about everything.

Welcome to Usenet. :-)

> His expertise,
> though, does not extend to writing. He's not bad. He is just not the
> expert he would have you think.

Nobody is the expert they would have me think. Not even you.

Okay, I'll make an exception for dmr. He /is/ the expert he would have me
think. :-)

<snip>

>>> It is a problem if Americans think Gwyn's punctuation style is the
>>> correct style for Americans to imitate.
>>
>> Americans who use sci.crypt as a writing style guide are likely to
>> have far greater problems than (what you consider to be) misplaced
>> punctuation.
>
> I mean those American kids who read sci.crypt, recognize that Gwyn is a
> smart guy, and try to emulate him and his writing.

What, both of them? Wouldn't it have been simpler to send them both an email
warning them of the perils of the British quotation mark style? :-)

>>>>>> It's not /wrong/ to punctuate "like this". It's just a different
>>>>>> style to the style to which you are accustomed. That doesn't make
>>>>>> it wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, it's wrong. Try sending an ms punctuated /like/ that to an
>>>>> editor.
>>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> I did. They "corrected" it, much to my annoyance.
>>>
>>> Get it right next time!
>>
>> According to my lights, it /was/ right. Their "corrections" were, in
>> my opinion, incorrect.
>
> Repeat after me, "The editor is always right."

That is just as untrue as "the customer is always right".

>>> Oops, but italicize is spelled correctly.
>>
>> For Americans, yes. (Actually, both spellings are listed in my English
>> dictionary, with the -ize ending /not/ marked as "NAm"; some
>> Englishmen obviously disagree with me about that ending.)
>
> I noticed that some Brits disagree with you about the -ise and -ize
> matter.

Yes, some do. Others don't.

> I have no idea which -ending is standard British usage.

I don't think there's a standard. I /do/ think that there are at least three
"camps":

1) a "do what the Americans do because that's what we read in cheap American
novels" camp, which goes for -ize

2) a "for heaven's sake DON'T do what the Americans do" camp, which goes for
-ise

3) a "who gives a damn?" camp, which uses either with carefree abandon.

I must admit I have a sneaking regard for the (3)s, but I'm a (2) myself.

> Good thing
> I don't try to write for British publications. I don't put petrol in my
> car, either,

I understand that American cars are gas-powered; is that correct? I can't
help thinking it must be rather inconvenient. Wouldn't it be easier to find
a fuel that is liquid at normal temperatures? Liquid fuel is rather more
convenient to store (because it takes up far less volume) and pour (because
it is more suggestible to the seductive charms of gravitational
attraction).

ObTopic: there may be a steganographically-concealed message in this
article, or there may not be. How could you tell one way or the other? 

-- 
Richard Heathfield : binary@eton.powernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

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