Re: What math class to take to catch up on Modulus and DLP?

From: Tom St Denis (tomstdenis_at_iahu.ca)
Date: 09/08/03 

Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 03:17:46 GMT

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M.S. Bob wrote:
| On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 01:38:14 GMT, Tom St Denis <tomstdenis@iahu.ca>
| wrote:
|
|
|>M.S. Bob wrote:
|>| On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:33:22 GMT, Tom St Denis <tomstdenis@iahu.ca>
|>| wrote:
|>|
|>|>Says who? I'm a high school grad with a lot of time on my hand. While
|>|>I'm certainly no pro I think I can safely say I at least am familiar
|>|>with the field.
|>|>
|>|>If you just pick up a few books, read them, toy with the math [e.g. do
|>|>the exercises] you'll be able to talk shop too :-)
|>|
|>|
|>| Tom,
|>|
|>| No offense, but you still do lack a fair bit of mathematical maturity.
|>
|>Very true but I never assumed that position either. I think I've made
|>it rather clear that I'm a newbie in the field and if you understood
|>differently you should really spend more time reading what I write :-)
|
|
| I do love how you fall back to this defense when someone calls your
| bluff. "I'm a newbie" -- yet you claimed "safely say I at least am
| familiar with the field." -- make up your mind.

A newbie can be familiar with something. To me "newbie" is synonymous
with an amateur. E.g. you don't have a complete mastery of the subject
matter.

I know a little bit of biology. That doesn't mean I'm a doctor but I do
know enough to name say most of the parts of the human heart, etc...

In this case I know *of* many things in math and cryptography. Some of
the things I can prove [e.g. I understand why they're true]. I don't
think I've ever claimed I have a complete mastery of number theory,
algebra, etc.

|>Also often in my own defense I'm only offering what I happen to know as
|>I understand it. If more knowledgeable people would kick in some
|>information things would improve.
|
|
| Yes, those stupid professors, mathematics, and cryptographers like Bob
| Silverman, Douglas Gwyn, David Wagner, Greg Rose, Brian Gladman, etc.
| who all horde their information, and never try to inject knowledge or
| understanding in sci.crypt. Hell, they never even try to correct your
| factual mistakes or your misunderstandings. Thank you St Denis, you
| are our saviour.

First off, David Wagner did most of his really cool work before he was a
PhD. He was keen into crytography when he was an undergrad. Greg Rose
doesn't hold a masters or PhD in any math related field at all. I don't
know about the rest but certainly I don't see what you're point is.

Anyways, this thread is just a character assassination. If you don't
like me this is not the place to discuss it. If you actually have
something useful to contribute to the thread don't cloud it with
belittling me.

| Get serious, I think you can credit yourself with fanning the flames
| and prolonging more than one flamewar, and perhaps making it just too
| tedious for those who do not have the time to sit around waiting to
| correct your usenet postings. To be fair and clear, you are by far not
| the only one that engages in flaming.

Seeing how you're the one who started this particular flame war....
pot....kettle......black!!!!!

|> Agreed. However, there is nothing wrong with the self-taught method.
|>You just have to have more patience and tolerance than I've managed to
|>muster. I mean for the most part a university class consists of 16
|>weeks of lectures from a textbook, two or three exams, a few labs and
|>maybe a project at the end.
|
|
| Nothing is wrong with being self-taught, it is a very hard way to
| learn in that a) it tends not be well rounded, b) it is hard to
| develop debating or writing skills just by using books, c) books don't
| provide postitive reinforcement, and d) they are terrible at guilting
| you or making due dates to force you to keep motivated when you don't
| feel motivated.

I would disagree with a). To no offense to Alice Silverberg [who I use
as an example because I recently talked with her]. As I understand
she's holds a PhD in Math. However, when I asked her to help dumb
CEILIDH down a bit so I could implement it she basically told me it
wasn't worth her time. So being "well rounded" is not something I would
attribute from what I've seen [that being said maybe she was just
genuinely busy]. So it's entirely possible to go the academic route and
still close your mind to the world around you.

As to the rest of the points it depends on your attitude. You can goto
class for 7 years and still come out as a useless tool. You can goto
class for 7 years and come out a brilliant well spoken highly motivated
and distinguished person. Likewise you can drop out of university,
follow the crowd, publish many credible results, form your own business
and become Niels Ferguson. :-)

If there was a press that would take candiate human as input and form a
well-rounded productive person as output the owner of such a device
would be a billionaire. To just denounce self-taught individuals is
very ignorant and highly arrogant.

<snip rest>

Tom
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