Re: I was just wondering

Robert Moir wrote:

imhotep wrote:

Well, also remember that Linux is only about 10/12 years old. Sure 5
or 6 years ago, their were more differences. Currently, the only real
difference are the installation programs (RPMs, etc) that each use.

For someone who isn't a professional admin, that can result in a very big
difference. It's possible for someone with a Linux desktop that doesn't
understand about different distros to download something and find it won't
run. Even for me, if I can't find something that will run 'out of the box'
on my Ubuntu virtual machine, I often don't bother.

People have the same problem with Window's "DLL HELL". This is by far more
difficult for even "Profession Windows Admins" to correct (if possible) let
alone a common user.

What package did you have problems with. Honestly, I don't have these
problems (just to about 5 years or so ago). In am interested in what
package you had a problem with. Please specify...

Well, I was around during these days. Let's talk about it. Back in
the day, 10+ years ago. You had many vendors of UNIX playing BS
games. They would make sure that their version did not work well with
competetors versions. This BS went on for quite a while and yes, even
I complained about it.

Here is the difference. Linux is not about playing BS games. Open
Source developers do not try to put each other "out of business". In
fact, we enjoy working with other people and learning new things
along the way. That is what Linux is about; coding because you enjoy
it; learning because their is always someone around who knows more
than you about something.

Right. I'm not talking about what is and is not actually happening. I'm
talking about how things might look from the outside looking in. From the
outside, to someone making a cursory glance, it's gonna look like the same
old thing over and over.

Not sure what you are talking about here...please specify.

I think you are missing the point. You can choose any windows manager
you want. You don;t have to worry about anything because it works the
same on any of the Linuxes (or BSDs). If you know KDE use KDE. If you
know Gnome, use Gnome. Use whatever you know or if you want you can
learn something else.

This actually helps users. To reiterate, let's say you are a common
user. You learn KDE on Linux. You know it well, and can do anything
you want. Then you say, hey I want to check out a different version
of Linux. You install that version, select KDE are your windows
manager and everything works the same. You see, you are not trapped
into using any specific version of Linux (or BSD) because what you
know (KDE) works the same on all of them. You are free to choose
which ever one you want.

I understand all of that.

True KDE is much more configurable then Windows (and Apple) but why
is that a bad thing. Most "users' enjoy configuring the window
manager "just the way they want".

I'm really not sure I agree here. When I talk about users, I'm not talking
about other computer engineer types. I'm not talking about other
developers. I'm not talking about the network management team. I'm not
even talking about the outsourced helpdesk worker. I'm talking about end
users who don't know or care how the computer on their desk works. People
who have absolutely zero point nothing interest in computers, other than
as a means to the end of doing what they have to do in order to earn a

I have found that even the most feeble user likes to customize his/her
desktop. Now, that is not 100% but it seem to me that it is the majority.
In either case KDE allows the flexibility for the Admin to allow or
disallow this. Again, KDE is about choices...

Other than - at most - using a picture of their kids as a background and
selecting 'that pretty screensaver that Joan showed them last week", very
few of the users I've worked with in *any* job have shown the slightest
interest in customising their environment.

Maybe they do not care because they really can't customize all that much and
if given a chance they would like too. I have sceen this first hand with
the users we have. Once we got them off of Microsoft, and gave them an
Apple, or KDE running on Debian, the majority after a couple of months
really got into it. Now we did this right by giving each user a week of
training and closely monitoring their progress...

As an administrator of Linux you can lock out many or all configurable
changes if you like. Not really all the possible in Windows (or

Quite possible in Windows. Apple's network management tools are not all
that mature as I've already mentioned.

Although, I do not do this as I found many users really enjoy
customizing the look and feel of KDE (and these ARE window user

Your experiences with your users is different to mine, that's all I can

Have you given them an opportunity? If you have not, you *really* don't know
do you...

Well, thanks. I often "violently" disagree with your options too.
But, I would also be one of the first persons to complain should
censorship be an issue with anyone. On a side note, it seems that
sensorship is becoming an issue now-a-days. It seems that big
business and governments do not like the freedom the Internet
provides. Maybe it is the "Linux" in me that does not want the
Internet controlled by any one company or any one government...

I don't think anyone does. Except those people who would like to be in
control, of course.

Well, if you are paying attention there is a subtle push to do exactly what
we all *don't* want here...time well tell how it unfolds.

Roger, you use a Mac? I am getting a little more impressed by
you...After all Apple is also Unix :-)

I support a mixed Mac and Windows network, including Mac servers and


Every day when I'm at work, at the moment. As well as being the 'go to
guy' for any real tough Windows Server problems, I'm currently about the
only Apple-trained engineer in the place.


The new Intel based one? I have a Mac laptop (for work). I am
thinking about upgrading to the new Intel based Mac. Last week we got
a test laptop based on the Intel. We are thinking about upgrading
many users to it. We got the bootcamp software running in about 30
minutes. It was quite impressive. I had Mac OS, Linux and Windows all
running on the thing. It was quite fast....

It's very sweet. You'll not be disappointed if you go ahead and get one.
Make sure you get the memory upgrade from somewhere else and fit it
yourself. Apple bleed you something rotten on things like that. I managed
to order a 2Gb upgrade from Crucial and fit it myself for about the price
Apple wanted to let me leave the store with a 1Gb Macbook.

WOW. I will. I am putting a Req in in two weeks. I have next week off for
some well deserved RR with my wife....



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