Re: Win xp sp2 firewall

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:05 +0000, B. Nice wrote:

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:47:21 -0500, Leythos <Void@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I agree so far.

So

Is it fair to assume that an admin is supposed to know what he is
doing? - I think so.

No, as most users of Windows computers don't know there is an Admin or
Limited account.

And therefore IMHO this is what should be taught. Every time they are
taught to protect themselves with a PFW instead of being told about
user accounts and about how computer administration is supposed to
work, the process is delayed.

Is it true that most windows users are running as admins? - Sure.

Yes, and those are the people that need protection in most all cases.

Sure. But I believe a restricted user account is the preferred
solution to that problem.

Is it fair to assume that most users running as admins don't know what
they are doing? - I think so.

Yep, we agree.

So the root cause seems to be the fact that users are running as
admins. Therefore also this is what needs to change.

And the problem is that many applications under Windows won't run as a
limited user, websites can't install their active-x as a limited user,
etc... Even QuickBooks won't run as a limited user without additional
setup beyond the scope of the type of users we talking about.

And as long as no pressure is put on the software vendors to fix their
products it is'nt gonna change, is it?

So, while we all agree that the root cause is ignorance and running as
Admins, what we need to change is way more than just people running as
admins.

1) ZA and others protect the ignorant and Admins far better than Windows
XP SP2 firewall.

An ignorant can't be protected by software running as admin.

2) Program developers need to write code that runs well, without
changes/hacks for limited user level accounts.

Yup.

3) Websites need to be coded to NOT use active-x.

Who needs activeX on websites anyway.

Until the time we can force the above 3 items, and until people stop using
Admin level by default, applications like ZA and others will provide more
protection than XP SP2 firewall does.

And as long as people continue to just go with the flow that won't
happen.

May I add:

4) Users need proper education and guidance.

I'm glad it seems we agree on all of those points, it's actually nice to
chat with someone that's not off-kilter.

The problem that we have is that none of those things are happening, and
few of us can reach the masses that are impacted daily by ignorance and by
malware.

So, as a general rule, while we can't educate the masses in time to
protect them or us from them.

My experience has been that if I suggest ZA/ZAP, that the users tend to
fall into two groups - those that don't have a clue and never will and
those that start learning and actually question every little pop-up. Those
running XP SP2 firewall never question anything as they are almost never
asked about anything, never see what is happening, never know about the
holes already in their firewall.

So, it boils down to the user continuing to use XP SP2 firewall and being
compromised due to the OS defaults and ignorance, or their being asked to
install some third party PFW that provides at least a little more
protection, provides a chance for them to become motivated, a chance to
keep them protected.

In every case where I've visited a person using just the XP firewall, they
were compromised unless they also had a NAT/Firewall appliance.

In all but one case where I've visited people using ZA/ZAP or other PFW
(not Windows XP SP2 FW), they've all been uncompromised and that includes
the people with several computers and no NAT router.


--
Leythos
spam999free@xxxxxxxxxx (remove 999 for proper email address)
.

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