Re: News Release

Cliff <> wrote:
Are you quoting news reports or facts when you make the statement "Bush is
corroding democracy and liberty in the US"?


In a democracy the people has to control what the state does. Who and
how is controlling one, which has all information and the rest has none?

Or are all reports about New Orleans wrong and this public authority
just used their power to do a good job? Or are there other reasons for
such a concentration of power?

I personally have to pass on visiting friends, doing business and taking
part in conferences in the US because I don't want to be treated like a
criminal - when I want to visit the US (for example, I was invited to
Hawaii this turn of the year), then they want to take my fingerprints
like with a thief or bandit they cought.

And what's with this electing machine thing? Sorry, I'm doing computer
science. What I'm reading only from the manufacturers makes my hair
stood on end.

And, sorry, what's there in Guantanamo Bay, has nothing to do with legal
acting of a constitutional state. Here in Germany, fortunately many
people learned their lesson (from the US, BTW), and the German word
"Konzentrationslager" should not be required any more, at least not in
conjunction with a democracy.

Here in Germany we now have learned, that in every situation you have
rights. If you're getting arrested, you have the right to be supported by
a lawyer. You have the right to be informed about the accusations. And
you cannot be arrested for a longer time without facing a court hearing
and having the possibility to answer back the accusations.

The US government itself say, that they're refusing to give these basic
rights to the prisoners there. I really cannot understand this.

Not to mention Abu Garaib. Are officers responsible for their men or
not? Why are the officers not penalized and all fired, and why is
Mr. Rumsfeld not resigning and the US citizens are accepting this?

I live in the US and my liberty
has not been "corroded" one whit

So you can fly from Chicago to New York without being treated like a
criminal? It's just like before? And you can visit Arabic states without
getting into trouble?

and I know of no one else who has had their
liberty or democracy "corroded.

You have blind trust into the authority? Why a democracy then after all,
why not a monarchy or aristocrathy? ;-)

I think, the reason for a constitutional state and democracy is to
control what's going on. The _people_ have to be in control above
authorities, not vice versa.

BTW: we have big problems with such things here in Europe, too, and
especially here in Germany. I'm so disappointed about the US, because I
had the hope that they would be the example for democracy again, but
unfortunately this did not happen.

the amount of rhetoric and false claims of "lost liberty" has increased

So you're claiming all people are lying who had problems because they
look Arabic or were target of lawful interception or even got arrested
in spite of doing nothing for giving a good reason for such provisions?

and ruining the
reputation of the USA in the world?
And just what reputation was that?

The reputiaton of the USA was very high - as a matter of fact, many
people in other countries saw them as an example for a great country.

We do not run our country based on the
acceptance of foreign nations...never have....never will.

Unfortunately, you're obviously right here. But this planet is bigger
than 50 states, much bigger. And most of the people are not US citizens.

I personally think, many of the problems the US and other countries are
facing are a direct result of this attitude BTW. Did you ever think
about the fact, that most of the people in Arabic countries, in Iran and
in many other places see Osama bin Laden as a hero and the US as evil?

We all know that this special bin Laden is a criminal and murderer, and
that the US are not evil. Why do so many people think so in these
countries, that so many of them have hate enough to even attack the US?

This discussion better would be on, because this is
a security related topic - making your neighbours angry on this small
planet directly results in having security problems you otherwise would
not have.

Since "Homeland Security", the manipulations with elections,
Manipulations with elections? Following our laws is manipulation?

No. I'm referencing the unspeakable election machine topic.

the witch
hunt in airports,
Witch hunt? Have you ever flown on El Al?

Sorry, not yet.

They make our security seems like
playschool. Is their something wrong with securing your air travel after 13
people hijacked airplanes, destroyed the WTC,damaged the Pentagon and killed
3000+ people?

No. But there is something strange with enforcing me to be treated like
a criminal when I want to visit friends in the US - what do I have to do
with all this?

I understand that it's neccessary to search for weapons before letting
people enter a public airplane. I understand that it's necessary to
x-ray the passengers, for example. But I personally think, too, that
this has to have borders.

I cannot see that this unleashed policy of wanting to control all people
leads into more security at all. It just leads into controlling all
harmless people. A very dangerous thing, because this is the opposite of
the ideas of democracy and freedom.

Personally, I'm feeling most secure in a free society where no
government tries to closely observe and control me.

If we're giving up our freedom, then the terrorists alread have won.
We had such problems while cold war, and I fear that we're running in
such problems again now.

and finally this disastrous war of aggression in Iraq
Let's see One war (GW1) 18+ UN resolutions and Saddams refusal to disarm and
disclose as he had promised is a war of aggression? Remember Saddam started
all of this by Invading Kuwait.

You don't want to compare the US with Saddam, do you? You don't want to
review US policy comparing to that what this criminal Saddam was calling
his policy?

I'm critizising US government here, not a criminal and nefarious
dictator. IBTD. From US government I'm expecting completely other things
than from such a vermin.

A government of a constitutional state has to act following law. A
government of a constitutional state has to fulfill international
contracts, right?

This is what I'm expecting the US citizens to do: enforcing, that their
government is acting following law, ond only following law, because the
USA are not a dictatorship, and cannot and must not be compared with
a state like Saddam's Iraq.

Because Bush is doing what needs to be done. It may be unpopular, it may not
be politically correct and it may not be in the best interest of foreign
countries but someone had to do it.

I really cannot see that. A government of a constitutional state has to
act following law in any case, or we're all losing the base we're
standing on. Beside, I cannot see that the policy of Bush has decreased
the threats. The opposite is true.

I'm not American, so I really don't understand.
If I may give you some advice, don't read what the press says. Ferret out
the facts for yourself and make your own decisions.

This is exactly what I'm trying to do, while I'm modifying this: I'm
trying to additionally read what the press says - but the press from all
sides. Then I make my decision.

There is so much
rhetoric and propaganda from both sides it is extremely hard to discern the

Yes. And what's truth? The truth of whom? ;-)

As for GW Bush, do yourself a favor, listen to what the man says, not
what others say he said.

When I'm listening to what he says, then I'm getting feared from this
man and the power he has. I really don't like people who are claiming to
have a mandate from god. I don't like it with the Islamic extremists,
and I don't like such comparisons with an elected leader of a
constitutional state at all.

He has his mandate from you, the US citizens. And this is his only
mandate he has. And when I'm listening to what he's saying in his
speeches, I don't have the feeling that he's realizing that.

Isn't humility a Christian idea?

At first there was the word. And the word was Content-type: text/plain