RE: Bank Exploit

"In our case - who is our CDC?"

Both CERT and InfraGard come to mind. CERT for the vulnerability and
InfraGard (it is the FBI after all) to get the word out.

CERT - http://www.cert.org/vuls/
InfraGard - http://www.infragard.net/index.htm and tips:
https://tips.fbi.gov/

-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jax Lion
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 8:56 AM
To: Bob Radvanovsky
Cc: Scott Race; Warren V Camp; Jason Thompson; securityz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Bank Exploit

In the case of doctors, if the disease is the deadly and communicable
one - they should follow up with the CDC who would then follow up and
find all who are infected or at least interacted with that individual
and possibly quarantine and contain. Remember the TB patient who was
prevented from flying back to the US?

In our case - who is our CDC?

--------
On 7/26/07, Bob Radvanovsky <rsradvan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ahhhh....but therein lies one of the biggest and most debated
issues/problems -- when (as a security professional) should I 'do the
right thing'?

Some might argue, "OK, you're receiving a paycheck from your client.
Do they want the world to know that they have a vulnerability?" If ABC
is your client, and you've signed an NDA, legally, you can't approach
EFG, perhaps even if you wanted to. Ethically, you are 'honor bound' to
divulge to EFG; civilally, you may be 'legally bound' to ABC.

One (possible) way out of this mess might be to:

(1) Have ABC acknowledge that EFG has vulnerabilities.
(2) Have ABC acknowledge that you, as a security professional, are NOT
legally bound to divulging into to EFG.
(3) That you will not be prosecuted, either civil or criminally.
(4) Have an ABC officer sign-off on the document.

The problem stems from what happens if ABC *refuses* to oblige in
signing said document. If there are criminal ramifications, do you
notify the FBI or DOJ? Legally, ABC could come after *YOU*
afterwards. So could the federal government. In some circumstances,
if you were simply hired to perform "X" function for ABC and found "X"

for ABC and "Y" for EFG, reveal only what you were requested to
perform. If you have significant amounts of data on EFG's
vulnerabilities, it may be simply be better to destroy the findings.
Again, you were requested ONLY to perform "X" for ABC. You weren't
requested to perform "Y" for EFG. ;)

As a professional, you need to abide by what other professionals do.
Would your doctor do the same if he conducted a test and found out that
you and your wife (or girlfriend) had the same (or similar) disease (if
communicable)? The fact is, the doctor is honor-bound up to a point;
same goes with legal notification. A doctor, depending on the
circumstances may -- or may not -- notify your spouse or girlfriend of
the disease. Legally, they may or may not have to -- again, depending
on the circumstances. The same may hold true here.

-rad

----- Original Message -----
From: Jax Lion [mailto:jv4l1n4@xxxxxxxxx]
To: Scott Race [mailto:srace@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Cc: Warren V Camp [mailto:wcamp@xxxxxxx], Jason Thompson
[mailto:securitux@xxxxxxxxx], securityz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Bank Exploit


In a scenario where you have been hired to test company ABC, in the
process you discovered that there is vulnerability in company EFG.

You inform company ABC of your findings, but should you inform
company EFG what you have discovered?

If company EFG is a client of company ABC, company ABC might* choose

not to divulge the finding to company EFG due to reasons of their
own.

As a security professional, do you have an obligation to inform
company EFG of the finding, even though you were not hired to test?



----

On 7/26/07, Scott Race <srace@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Obviously there are many ways to look at this one.

The bottom line is you have discovered a security hole that the
bank
should
be aware of. Your letting the bank know will benefit them, but at

cost
for
your services. Will they think you are looking out for them, or
will they think you are just trying to justify a job?

It's all about communicating your INTENTION (as with everything in

life
for
that matter).

Approaching it like "I have hacked you, now pay me to fix it" is
like ransom.

If your intention is to help them, you need to clearly communicate

that to them, with the risk that they don't understand, in which
case you need to
be
ready to seriously explain in way they understand (we don't know
your
boss,
so only you know the way to communicate this).

As with all jobs, it comes down to communication. I've always
felt a good IT professional needs to cultivate both techincal
skills AND people
skills.

So, it's up to you. Can you communicate in a way they can
understand and TRUST? If so, go for it. If you are not confident

then I would not
suggest
you hold off.

________________________________
From: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Warren V Camp
Sent: Wed 7/25/2007 2:32 PM
To: Jason Thompson; Jax Lion
Cc: securityz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Bank Exploit




This does not sound good. On the surface it appears that a "good"
hacker wants to tell the bank that he/she has see evidence of
"bad" hackers on their system and that the "good" hacker wants to
sell consulting services
to
the bank. The "good" hacker could be in just as much trouble as
the
"bad"
hackers.


---- Jax Lion <jv4l1n4@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So Jason - what happened to your collegue?

IMHO - I don't think option 2 is a good idea. Questions will
come up such as - how did you discover the vulnerability in the
first place.
What were you doing... and it all goes downhill from there.

I don't agree with keeping quiet either...

Is there a medium where we can report the "accidental
discoveries"
without risk of prosecution? Like a hot tip line with the FBI
or something.


On 7/25/07, Jason Thompson <securitux@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Risky... is this person a security professional?

This has happened to one of my colleagues before as well.
There are two solutions that are possible:

1) Do not reveal this or tell anyone about it. Leave it be. As

there is this heightened sense of urgency among banks to
thwart potential attackers the person could be in trouble with

the bank for simply discovering the issue. It really all
depends on the person he or she deals with there. Not saying
it would hold up in court, it likely wouldn't, but anyone who
has the ability to find exploits is generally regarded in a
dim light by those who are uneducated on the subject.

2) Notify the bank's incident response team / security staff,
OFFER a non-disclosure agreement to them saying that you will
not disclose this to anyone regardless of what actions the
bank decides to take on their vulnerability, and state that
this was discovered by accident and that he or she simply
wants to notify them about the issue and IS NOT seeking ANY
SORT of compensation. If they are notified and it follows with

the statement 'I would be willing to help consult you on the
solution for a small compensation' it instantly becomes
extortion and this person will likely be thrown in jail.

I am not a lawyer by any means, I am simply speaking from past

experiences and what I have seen happen to those who did
things the right way and the wrong way.

Solution 2 is a lot easier if your friend's client works in
information security and holds federal clearances and security

designations. Real ones, not Cisco or something :)

-J

On 25 Jul 2007 13:34:29 -0000, securityz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<securityz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Friend of mine (not me, really) is working with a client of
his who
claims to have inadvertently discovered a few web exploits of
several financial institutions. Does anyone have any insights as
to how this guy could bring these to the attention of the
organizations involved without being seen as a hacker? His
minimal goal is to help the institutions, optimally he would like
to consult to help them rectify the issues.


thx

Steve



--
Warren V. Camp, CPA, CISA, CDP






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