RE: FAX a virus




Wrong Daniel,

Crying wolf and leading others to exaggerate risk is one of the biggest bugbears in the industry. It takes focus from the true issues and is a dead weight loss economically.



Information technology is a science and engineering field. My asserted view of relative positivism is the current leading philosophy of science and the reason that you are reading this email.



The point of risk analysis is that you have to have a threat that can exploit a vulnerability and lead to an impact. Theory is low risk at best.



Stating that there is a possibility of an attack is crying wolf. The person asking the question wanted to have an idea of risk. They wanted validly sought an answer from the list as to the risk of a system.



However, rather than stating to this person that the risk is low at best. That there is no known or considered attack in the given situation; we start to reply about investigating possibilities. We start talking about Trojans over the fax input. This is crying wolf and this is exaggerating the risk.



Regards,

Craig


________________________________

From: Daniel Anderson [mailto:dtndan@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wed 7/03/2007 6:06 PM
To: Craig Wright
Cc: Nick Duda; security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Bob Radvanovsky
Subject: Re: FAX a virus


Assuming that you are secure is worse then dealing with assessing a few risks that may turn out to be dead ends.

"Innocent until proven guilty" might be a great basis for a legal system, and in science theories must be be proven or _disproven_ not assumed away. Bystanders yelling "that is FUD" don't help anything. Claiming that you don't have to prove anything is silly. As a security person (I'm assuming this is your role) you should be all about identifying, analyzing and assessing risks, not declaring debate over.

Views like yours ("I don't have to prove it is secure, you need to prove it is insecure.") have lead us to a pitiful state in IT security and software quality.

"Of course you can't attack a system with a malformed JPEG"
Oh, wait....http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS04-028.mspx

"Of course you can't attack a wireless card's driver"
Oh, wait...http://www.frsirt.com/english/advisories/2006/3100

Etc...(You know we could go on all night with this list...)

For security to work you must analyze risks, not make assumptions....

You need to make them prove to you that it is secure, not the other way around. Computer programs do not have rights that need protected.

Besides, unless I missed an e-mail, no one "cried wolf", you just started ranting when a couple people said something sensible to the effect of "yea, you might want to investigate this".

Dan


On 3/6/07, Craig Wright <cwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


PS, they should be analysed before people cry wolf.

This is the point. FUD is rampant in the security industry. Rather than
jumping blindly on the bandwagon, we should be thinking first, acting
responsibly and rejecting unproven BS.

If I state that we are vulnerable to attacks from grey aliens, I would
expect that I have to prove both that there are grey alins and that we
are vulnerable BEFORE anyone goes off the wagon and starts panicing.

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Anderson [mailto:dtndan@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:18 PM
To: Craig Wright
Cc: Nick Duda; anonymous@xxxxxxxxx; security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: FAX a virus

Nick, I wouldn't waste my time. Craig seems to want to hear himself
rant today.

You can tell because he is screaming about FUD, making cracks about who
is "professional" and who is not, bringing in lots of nonrelated info,
and giving us unnecessary background info, but not useful info like
current ITU standards, T.30, T.38, etc.

Suffice it to say that FAX has grown up into a digital data protocol,
and there are various potential areas that could be explored once you
get your head around the fact that a FAX no longer has to involve paper
any more and, if it is ever analog, is only analog for the physical bit
between the modems (which really doesn't matter one way or the other).

While the OP suggested a situation that could not really occur (inject
macro type virus over FAX) a variety of buffer overflows (driver, tiff
libraries, PDF libraries, etc), etc should be analyzed and not merely
declared as "FUD, FUD, FUD".

Dan


On 3/6/07, Craig Wright < cwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


No, the attach is not against the fax. It is not via the fax
comms. It
is simply an attack against a cisco over IP that you are
assuming.

The cisco can not be attacked in the manner you suggest.

Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Duda [mailto: nduda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2007 4:18 AM
To: Craig Wright; anonymous@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto: anonymous@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:anonymous@xxxxxxxxx> > ; security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FAX a virus

Fax machine + Cisco ATA + IP + CallManager = Fax machine

Fax machine can = software

Fax can be IP/Software based....a possible vector for an attack.

________________________________

From: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Craig Wright
Sent: Fri 3/2/2007 11:51 PM
To: anonymous@xxxxxxxxx; security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FAX a virus




FAX!
There is NO UDP/IP port. NO TCP/IP port. No IP Address.


FAX is not IP based.


Not theory at all. FUD!


Craig

________________________________

From: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on behalf of anonymous@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri 2/03/2007 6:31 AM
To: security-basics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: FAX a virus



Perhaps something along these lines:

Dependant on resolving the phone number to an IP address of
course, but
once that information is found either through social engineering
or voip
probes you could use nmap to find which port is working as the
fax
reciever then attempt to determine the type of fax machine and
from
there if you knew assembly could *possibly (if the fax machine
allowed
remote firmware upgrades) rewrite the firmware of the machine
itself but
a more practical method would be to temporarily store
information in the
buffer of the fax machine (this would cause garbage to be
printed for
one thing which would be a big annoyance).

And from what you have described from your setup the software
itself may
be vulnerable to memory bounds checks etc. You would want to
research
the software using lists such as this if you are truely afraid
of
vulnerabilities in your fax application.

Again this is more theoretical then practical but you get the
idea.


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