Re: Secure host newbie - fun - humm

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To: Barry Fitzgerald <bkfsec@sdf.lonestar.org>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 13:49:45 -0700

Please dont tell me how much I have or have not worked with security.

For security to work correctly, the user should have black and white
choices. For the user to make a concious choice between secure and
insecure mode, the person deploying it should offer black and white
choices (e.g. hotmail login). In order that the people deploying the
solution can make concious black and white choices, people who design
the solutions have to MAKE and OFFER black and white choices. This is
where I come in. I do network protocols design, security solutions, and
kernel work for a living.

Now if people in my position were to not view security as a black or
white issue, the deployers would end up with a greyish "solution", and
the users would end up with a smudgy hazy grey that would be wrongly
passed around as a secure solution.

You are focussed on the fact that the "real world" is not black and
white. In my job, I HAVE to view security as black and white, and design
stuff accordingly, and offer choices accordingly, because the farther up
this design chain that someone compromises the concept of "either
completely secure or else its insecure", the more compromised the final
deployed solution that the users actually use. e.g. I can design the
most secure system in the world, but that's meaningless if the users put
their password on a sticky on their monitor. On the other hand, if I
allow the use of telnet to backup sensitive data like passwords, then
the I've just compromised even the most savvy user, and I force them to
work outside the system to achieve their security goals. Therefore,
should telnet be allowed ? NO - its a simple, black and white decision.
You have a vendor who forces telnet onto you ? then you have a vendor
who doesn't care about the security of your digital assets and I suggest
that you vote with your money.

As I said before, if you have run systems where there is no known
weakness - that's secure. If you run systems where there is a known
exploit - that's insecure. That fact that you "know" that all boxes in
the world are insecure is not the "know" that I am talking about. I am
talking about tangible "knowing" such as bugs listed on securityfocus
mailing-lists or CERT advisories. Unfortunately even open source is not
perfect. e.g. the Linux do_brk() vulnerability was vastly underestimated
and took time to fix, allowing a few major breakins.

I think we should just agree to disagree.

Ranjeet.

On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 12:50, Barry Fitzgerald wrote:
> Ranjeet Shetye wrote:
>
> >Just cos an admin is helpless cos there is NO fix, does NOT exonerate
> >the network admin of any blame, IF he or she KNEW that is an exploit
> >available.
> >
> >
> Yes, actually, it does.
>
> Let's say I work for company A. Company A has a policy that uptime is
> critical and a server with a vulnerability is found. It's not my
> decision, as the admin, whether or not to take down the server. It's an
> executive decision. And I guarantee you that almost every executive out
> there will say "keep the server up". The cost of not keeping the server
> up is often extreme loss of business. As the admin, I'm not responsible
> for that decision nor should I be held responsible for it if I gave
> people the proper information.
>
>
> >In today's 24x7 broadband interconnected world, you have 2 options:
> >1. Take down the server yourself.
> >2. Hope that you do not get compromised and continue business as usual.
> >(When you do get taken down, try to put it back together from backups.)
> >
> >Are there any other options ? That is what I was pointing out. Find out
> >the cost of each option, and take the path with the lesser cost.
> >Decision-making 101.
> >
> >
> >
> I'm not disagreeing with that per-se. I'm disagreeing that it's a human
> issue.
>
> I don't consider the presence of a buffer overflow to ever be a human
> issue. It's a technological issue - plain and simple - that stems from
> purely technological decisions. If you get hit with an attack the day
> after the vulnerability is disclosed, that's not the fault of those who
> left the server up -- it's the fault of those who attacked the server
> and, to some extent, a problem caused by poor technical decisions on the
> part of the producer of the software.
>
> If you blame the admin because she chose not to DoS herself, you're
> blaming the wrong person.
>
> >e.g. Lets take a case where there IS a severe price to be paid for the
> >NEGLIGENCE of KNOWINGLY running an insecure solution.
> >
> >If a US based service is hosting health records on a Linux server, and
> >they KNOW that there is a kernel exploit that's available, BUT there is
> >no fix available for it, then either they play safe and TAKE DOWN the
> >server themselves, or prepare for a costly legal battle and/or a lengthy
> >prison sentence if it can be proven that the admin was (deliberately ?)
> >NEGLIGENT.
> >
> >
> >
> Actually, this is a great reason to use Free Software. If you're
> running a critical application and need to fix something like this, it's
> possible to do so. That's a case where, if the admin has enough time
> and the entity hires enough admins so that they have time to address
> issues like this, it would at least be possible to fix the problem.
> With proprietary software, that's not the case.
>
> >The court is surely NOT going to think that running data servers for
> >24x7 (admin's desire) OR the health of the business (CEO's desire) is
> >more important than the privacy of the health records. By law, EACH
> >leaked health record will cost you $8 million + other civil and criminal
> >proceedings if warranted + other intangibles like loss of customer
> >trust, loss of reputation, etc. If that is worth keeping your servers up
> >and running, you should make the decision accordingly. I wouldn't. I'd
> >try to keep the service secure.
> >
> >
> >
> Listen, as a security specialist, I *know* that every single box that I,
> you, and everyone else on this list touches is running some piece of
> software that has a security hole that someone else knows about and has
> an exploit for. I *know* that that exploit has not been released yet.
> I don't consider that to be hypothetical, I consider it to be a plain
> and simple fact.
>
> By your logic, since I *know* that these exploits exist, it would be
> irresponsible for me to not unplug all of our systems, and stay down
> until these exploits are patched or until we can protect our systems
> against them. But, when/if they are -- that means that there will be
> more unpatched/unmitigated vulnerabilities laying around that I *know*
> are out there but can't defend against -- causing me to be in a
> perpetual state of disability.
>
> At that point, we might as well just close down the internet because no
> one will ever have a server up.
>
> If I walk out onto the street, there's a chance that I could get hit by
> a truck.
>
> Let's say that I know that there's a certain brand of tire that are sold
> with SUVs that often burst. By your logic, if I knew this and chose to
> walk on the street, and I suddenly got hit by an SUV with a blown tire,
> it would clearly be my fault because I knew that the risk was there. I
> disagree with that outright because the problem was inherently technical
> and choosing to stay in my house perpetually was not an option.
>
> Your model here rewards only the ignorant -- because those of us who
> aren't ignorant understand that just being on the internet puts you at
> some level of risk and that there is no "100% I'm secure" level. You
> are always vulnerable and you will always be vulnerable. The key is to
> mitigate the risk and the name of the game is staying up and secure.
>
> If, in the process of doing that, you spend much of your time down --
> then the crackers and black hats have won against you. That's the name
> of the game. If you don't like that answer -- I don't know what to tell
> you, it's the situation we're in right now.
>
> >This is very different from DoS attacks because in DoS, you dont get a
> >choice, your server gets taken down for you. It's not a business
> >decision taken on the basis of some calculated risk.
> >
> >
> >
> By your logic above it is, because by running a system that has a known
> DoS-able condition, you're making the choice to be DoS'ed - by your
> logic, that is.
>
> A DoS condition is simply a denial of service. The state of a DoS is
> not reliant on source of the denial. The effect is the same either way.
>
> >And I DO think that security is a very black and white issue. Either you
> >have it, or you dont.
> >
> >
> >
> Then, no offense, but you haven't done much real security work...
>
> If security were so black and white, there wouldn't be many
> compromises. Admins would get it and coders would find writing secure
> programs easy. Bounds checking and input verification are only part of
> writing secure applications. And the human factor of security will
> NEVER be black and white. Security is not black and white. Simply by
> believing that you've tricked yourself into insecurity.
>
> -Barry

-- 
Ranjeet Shetye
Senior Software Engineer
Zultys Technologies
Ranjeet dot Shetye2 at Zultys dot com
http://www.zultys.com/
 
The views, opinions, and judgements expressed in this message are solely
those of the author. The message contents have not been reviewed or
approved by Zultys.
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