Re: My Frustrations



Roman,
Yes you did miss the point, but thats alright many of your points are good. My goal isn't to do anything other than to address the problem in the best way possible. Some customers will always choose the "cheap" route and as such will get equal results. Some customers don't know that they are choosing the "cheap" route and are open to being educated.

On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Roman Medina-Heigl Hernandez wrote:

Honestly, fake "professionals" exist in all computer (and non- computer)
related fields... unfortunately you are not going to avoid them by writing
a paper:
- A customer being faked ("the innocent") will not probably be reading this
kind of security lists and won't be able to reach your paper
- Obviusly a fake "expert" is not going to show his/her customer your paper
neither (since it would turn against him/her)
- Even for the real professional, I'm not sure whether it would be a good
idea (commercially speaking) to give a paper signed by a third party
(potentially a competitor indeed) to an undecided customer... Your sales
people won't be very happy with you... Just in case you are thinking about
simply disclosing your arguments (or similar ones) to the customer, are you
sure a real expert won't be able to assess the customer in this matter
without reading your to-be-released paper?

No offense intended (perhaps I missed your point, feel free to correct me
if I'm wrong) but I think you are wasting a precious time (that it could be
of good use to trace EIP in Ollydbg's wild world...).

Cheers,
-Roman


Adriel T. Desautels escribió:
Guys,
I just wanted to say thank you very much for all of the good input.
My team and I are working to digest this and we're in the process of
building a strictly educational paper for distribution. This paper will
arm potential customers in such a way that they:

1-) Understand the importance of good security
2-) Understand the reality of compliance
3-) Know how to identify real vendors and avoid the fakes
4-) Know what to expect for reports and deliverables
5-) Know what questions to ask vendors, sort of an advanced
qualification process.
etc.

Once the paper is done (it will be a while) I'll send a link to the
list. If you could also post your responses to the blog that would be
very much appreciated. Thanks again!!!



On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:58 PM, tony_l_turner@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

The difference being when they screw up they might lose their license
and can't practice anymore. When we screw up we just have to find
clients who haven't heard of us. Not sure if that argument is
sufficient to justify licensing but figured I'd at least clarify the
distinction.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Shenk, Jerry A" <jshenk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:31:43
To: pen-test list<pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: My Frustrations


Is being licensed really all that different from certified? I don't
know too many teachers but I know a couple really lousy ones and every
couple days, I hear some horrible story about a teacher who had sex with
a student or.... There are bad examples in the medical profession too
and they're all licensed. And drivers...they all have licenses. My
town requires plumbers and electricians to be licensed and they also
require that one of those guys who is playing the system review my work
if I want to do something myself. I'll bet we can all come up with
electrical and plumbing stories.

No, I don't think licensure is the answer. I think personal
responsibility both from the practitioner and the one needing the
service (or the checkbox;) is what's really needed.

-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:listbounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ]
On Behalf Of Sat Jagat Singh
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:54 PM
To: pen-test list
Subject: Re: My Frustrations

Having read your blog post, I would say that I share some of these
frustrations. But many organizations are really only trying to cover
their asses and put a check in the box to say that, yes we got an
assessment done to satisfy the letter of the regulations. These are
companies that are more concerned about the cost of the project than the
actual security. While such people tend to get what they deserve, it
does create a negative reputation for the profession as a whole.

Yes, I do think it is a "profession", but we have not "professionalized"
ourselves by requiring licensing. The industry reliance on
certification rather than licensing as a credential somewhat serves to
muddy the waters because the decision makers hiring security consultants
don't really know what a given certification covers. We could debate
the value of different certifications until the cows come home but I
don't want to insult anyone and we can probably agree that too many of
them do not guarantee that the holder has real qualifications and the
security unsavy will never really know how to evaluate that. More and
more I lean toward some form of professional licensure. One of the
states will have to move in this direction before a serious debate about
it will be opened. Until then, caveat emptor.


--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Adriel T. Desautels <ad_lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

From: Adriel T. Desautels <ad_lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: My Frustrations
To: "pen-test list" <pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 11:19 AM
I recently wrote this blog entry and wanted to get some
comments from readers of this list. I'm frustrated with
the caliber of the people that are offering security
services and posing as experts, thats the subject of the
post. Please comment, insult, whatever... I'm
interested.

http://snosoft.blogspot.com/


Adriel T. Desautels
ad_lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx





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Adriel T. Desautels
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--

Saludos,
-Roman

PGP Fingerprint:
09BB EFCD 21ED 4E79 25FB 29E1 E47F 8A7D EAD5 6742
[Key ID: 0xEAD56742. Available at KeyServ]

Adriel T. Desautels
ad_lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx




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Relevant Pages

  • Re: My Frustrations
    ... A customer being faked will not probably be reading this ... ourselves by requiring licensing. ... Security Trends Report from Cenzic ...
    (Pen-Test)
  • Re: My Frustrations
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