Re: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise their hand

FWD:

This would make a great panel talk at BlackHat or DEFCON?? :) Kind of reminds me of that talk at BlackHat 2002 "Why blah kiddies s***"..



-----Original Message-----
From: isn-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isn-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of InfoSec News
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:47 AM
To: isn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ISN] UPDATE: Can You Ever Trust A Hacker? UBS Trial Puts It To ATest

http://www.informationweek.com/security/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=190400435

By Sharon Gaudin
InformationWeek
July 17, 2006

After 20 years in computer security, including 11 in the financial
services industry, Karl Kasper is being vilified as a dangerous man.

Over the past month, in the trial of former UBS PaineWebber system admin
Roger Duronio, Kasper has been attacked by the defense because of his
background as a computer hacker and his role in UBS's investigation of the
attack. The lawyer for Duronio, defending him against charges that he
sabotaged UBS PaineWebber's trading network four years ago, asserted that
hackers can't be trusted to do a credible investigation. Kasper says the
defense team is just desperate. (A verdict is expected this week.)

Regardless of the outcome, Kasper's involvement in the case raises anew
important questions about whether ex-hackers should be hired for their
information security expertise.

Kasper got involved with UBS PaineWebber days after the "logic bomb" was
detonated. UBS hired his company, @Stake, to conduct the initial forensic
analysis. Kasper has impressive security credentials. He helped found
@Stake and has testified in front of a Senate committee about security
issues; he's since left @Stake and works as a VP in IT security at
JPMorgan Chase, not the first financial services firm at which he's
worked. Still, he's being haunted by his time as a member of the L0pht, a
hacker group that achieved star status in the 1990s.

The defense in the Duronio trial made much of the fact that in the
computer industry, Kasper goes by the pseudonym John Tan. Is that akin to
a writer using a pen name--Kasper treats it as more of a marketing brand
name--or is it a sign of something devious below the surface of business
suits and board meetings?

It's a question that has been asked before as hackers left their black
T-shirts and ponytails behind and entered the mainstream to cash in on
their technical savvy. As they worked away in their cubicles, many people
forgot they had once poked at systems and applications, looking for flaws
that would leave people and companies open to attack. Many still do those
same kinds of penetration tests, only now they do it for a regular
paycheck and a 401(k).

Back in their hacker days, did any of them ever use the holes they found
to break into systems, peek at private information, or even cause damage?
In some cases, yes. But it's unfair and inaccurate to say they all did.

Having hackers work at computer security companies or as IT consultants
generally elicits one of two responses: It's the smartest thing you can
do, or what the hell are you thinking?

"It's generally a bad idea to bring in old hackers because they have
habits that are hard to break," says Alan Paller, director of research at
security researcher the SANS Institute. Yet when it comes to dissecting a
possible computer crime scene, Paller sees value. "Somebody who has broken
into computers is more likely to see the evidence of a break-in," he says.
"For forensics, when they are tightly managed, it's a great idea.'' Still,
Kasper's involvement with the L0pht would raise extra questions in
Paller's mind about giving him access to production systems and live data.
There's a clear distinction between hackers and computer criminals, even
if that's not widely recognized, says Jeff Moss, director of Black Hat
(owned by CMP Technology, publisher of InformationWeek), which runs
computer security conferences and training events. "You have good hackers
and bad hackers, just like you have good plumbers and criminal plumbers,"
says Moss, who describes as "totally silly" the trial jabs at Kasper.
"They say John Tan is an evil hacker, yet he's never been arrested or
charged with anything."


Threat or Scapegoat?

Indeed, Kasper hasn't ever been charged with writing malware, damaging a
computer network, or even penetrating an unsuspecting system. On the
contrary, he has spoken at the SANS Institute and at several universities,
including the MIT Summer Security Camp.

Yet Chris Adams, the defense lawyer in the Duronio trial in federal court
in Newark, N.J., pinned much of his client's defense on calling into doubt
any backup tapes, coding, and mirror images that Kasper touched. Much of
Duronio's future is riding on whether a jury believes that a hacker--black
or white hat--is a bad person, capable of accidentally or intentionally
undermining an investigation. Jurors were still deliberating the case late
last week. (Look for the latest trial updates at InformationWeek.com.)

Kasper says he protected all the evidence he handled and did a responsible
job investigating the March 4, 2002, attack, which deleted all files from
nearly 2,000 servers at the company. But he admitted that @Stake at times
had to convince some clients that there was nothing to worry about. "It's
something @Stake had to fight," Kasper says. "It's a very knee-jerk
reaction. Unless you hire people with a deep understanding [of systems and
security], what are you getting?"

The L0pht's reputation certainly contributes to the mystique. The group, a
seven-man fraternity, held tech jobs during the day and met in a warehouse
at night to challenge their hacking skills. They spent much of their time
amid an assortment of hard drives, cables, and empty pizza boxes trying to
exploit security flaws in widely used operating systems and software
packages. L0pht members weren't known for wreaking havoc on company
systems. They promoted themselves as a consumer watchdog group, the Robin
Hoods of tech, exposing and fixing hidden flaws.

In February 1999, members of the L0pht reported finding a vulnerability in
Windows NT. The flaw would allow any NT user to take administrator-level
control of the computer. The group alerted the public and Microsoft, which
released a security advisory and a fix. But while they were issuing alerts
for software flaws and painting themselves as white hats, they also issued
L0phtCrack, a password-cracking tool for Windows NT. At the time,
L0phtCrack was believed to be one of the most widely distributed hacking
tools. However, it also could be used to benefit a company's IT
department. In fact, Microsoft advised customers in a 1998 security
bulletin to consider evaluating a tool such as L0phtCrack to check the
quality of users' passwords.

Does any of this make Kasper, or any of the other members of the L0pht,
part of the "murky underworld of cybercrime," as the defense called them
repeatedly throughout the trial?

When a reporter put the question to him, Kasper laughed at the suggestion.
''I don't see them calling me to the stand," he said. "I'd say the Senate
and the White House wouldn't have invited us in if we were that shady.''


Plagiarism Raised As Another Issue

Someone else in the forensics community who wasn't called to the stand was
Michael Michalowicz, a partner at Protiviti, the company the Duronio
defense team hired to do its forensics investigation. Kevin Faulkner, a
senior consultant with Protiviti, did the investigation and acted as a
defense witness in court. Michalowicz is his supervisor, reviewing
Faulkner's forensics analysis and signing off on his ultimate report.

Michalowicz was on the defense's potential witness roster but he never was
called to the stand. Faulkner did take the stand. He was the defense's
first of only two witnesses called. Once the government had a chance to
cross-examine Faulkner, the prosecutor quickly began questioning the
forensics investigator about his boss. After asking Faulkner about
Michalowicz's level of participation in the case, Assistant U.S. Attorney
Mauro Wolfe directly asked him if he knew his boss had plagiarized an
article.

The judge wouldn't allow the evidence into the case but the prosecution
was pointing to the fact that Michalowicz had an article, entitled Data
Forensics--In Search of the Smoking Gun, published by the Boston College
Law School: Intellectual Property and Technology Forum in March 2005. A
longer version of the same article, similarly entitled Data Forensics--The
Smoking Gun May be a Click Away, was published in the New Jersey Law
Journal on Sept. 13, 2004 with the byline Paul G. Lewis.

While Michalowicz's article was longer than Lewis', they were highly
similar. The first sentence in the Lewis article reads: "The term 'data
forensics' suggests a high-tech process reserved only for cases centered
around proprietary technology." The first sentence in the Michalowicz
article reads: "The term 'data forensics' sounds like a high tech process
reserved only for those select cases encompassing proprietary technology."
The second sentences are identical. The similarities--or outright
duplicate phrases--continue throughout the pieces.

When questioned about it, a spokesperson for Protiviti said the article is
the property of the company so any of Protiviti's partners can put their
name on it. She said the article was the "intellectual property of the
firm."

But that begs the question of whose ideas they are and why Michalowicz
would have an article published under his own name when it had been
published under someone else's name a full year earlier. In a court case
where the reliability and trustworthiness of the security companies
involved came into such dramatic play, such a move might make the waters
even murkier.


Name That Hacker

In the current trial, defense attorney Adams repeatedly pointed out that
Kasper used the Tan pseudonym when dealing with U.S. Secret Service agents
investigating the attack on UBS. He even signed official forensic
documents, such as chain-of-custody documents for evidence, as John Tan.

Greg O'Neil, the lead Secret Service agent on the case, testified during
the first weeks of the trial that he hadn't been aware until late 2004 or
early 2005 that John Tan was not his real name. "He lied to you about the
most basic information," Adams asserted during O'Neil's cross examination.

Kasper says he was up front with the Secret Service about the fact that he
uses two names and would be going by John Tan during the UBS
investigation. He says he made a point of bringing it up during his first
meeting with Secret Service agents. O'Neil testified he was out of the
office the day of that meeting and was brought in for subsequent meetings.


Brand Name

"When we get involved [in investigations], we use the pseudonyms," Kasper
says, "but we're open and more than willing to share our real identities."
Kasper, who says he even has credit cards under his Tan name, began using
the pseudonym when he was in the L0pht, which tested various products and
offered critical reviews. It was a way to protect his employer at the time
(a financial institution that he declined to name) from vengeful tactics
by IT vendors in the event they were angered by unfavorable reviews.

Now, the name has market value. "The public works that I put out in the
security field were under my pen name, and my Senate testimony was under
my pen name," he points out. "There definitely was a brand name in it.
When we were building @Stake, part of the idea was to retain the brand
name we built up in the L0pht. There was absolutely no recognition for the
real names, so we stuck with the brand."

Kasper also rebutted the defense's suggestions that evidence he handled
can't be trusted. He says he kept the evidence safe, using
government-rated classified document containers to lock it away. @Stake
also maintained chain-of-custody documents and used video surveillance to
monitor the main entry to the company's office, labs, and document
containers.

The jury's decisions should shed some light on what tech industry
outsiders think of people like Kasper. Is prodding software for security
flaws while operating under an assumed name grounds for lifelong
suspicion--or front-line training that's perfect for investigating real
criminals?

Copyright 2005 CMP Media LLC


_________________________________
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Training, Las Vegas July 29 - August 3
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-----Original Message-----
From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Jul 14, 2006 4:59 PM
To: Mark Teicher <mht3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, arian.evans@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Untitled <pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise their hand

What, the trainers aren't good enough? ;)

T

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On 7/14/06 12:46 PM, "Mark Teicher" <mht3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:

Anyone on the speaker circuit.. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: "Arian J. Evans" <arian.evans@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Jul 14, 2006 1:29 PM
To: pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise their hand

I'm sorry, there's good & bad people out there, and I've worked
for the bad kinds of folks Terry described, and while I could
fill pages with sadly amusing anecdotes: that's life.

There's also good folks out there to work for/with, and you
simply have to look a little harder to find them.

Yes, shameless self-promotion and over-committal BS wins most
of the time; you should hear my friends in the pharmaceutical
industry rant about this *same* subject. Except, they have
a heck of a lot more Riding on their management's mistakes
than an unfixed XSS or CSRF.

Nothing unique about our industry vs. say accounting, except
maybe about 600 years of formalized practice.

I've gotten to sit beside PHD's who talk all day about network
security concepts, but cannot run a sniffer to save their life,
and I've worked with folks who would pick the PHD over the
experienced professional to run the sniffer every time. </shrug>

So if it bugs you, go get a PHD and be both.

Mark: I am curious though, I'm headed to BlackHat next month,
and who is it that you recommend I should be trying to meet?

Arian J. Evans
+1.913.378.3571 [mobile]

"See? That was nothing.
But that's how it always begins.
Very small." -Egg Shen


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Teicher [mailto:mht3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 3:36 PM
To: Terry; pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise their hand

But why one doubt a Ph.D. (CISSP, IAM, CCNP, CCDA, CCNA, ACE,
CCSA, CCSE, and MCSE) who gained access to a database at
Roswell in the early 90's Almost like a person who spent
over 10 years with the Federal Government perfecting the
skills which enable him to be called "one of the first
CYBERSPACE private investigators".

Makes you want to attend BlackHat and actually meet and greet
a real bonafide grey/black hat hacker. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry <tvernon24@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Jul 13, 2006 3:56 PM
To: 'Mark Teicher' <mht3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise
their hand


Just recently, I worked at a company whose main client was
the DoD. When I
was being scouted I heard many promises and things that
peaked the interest
of an ex-mischief maker. When I got the job I soon realized
that the man
running the show was a huge fraud who claimed many accolades
above my own.
Everything he said about his technical past was a lie and to
make things
worse, whenever he talked about me openly he hyped me up to
be something I'm
not from my past reputation. In the end he stopped
pretending to be my ally
and I got railroaded but it didn't come without a price to
them. When I
think about the whole mess now all I see is how shameless
self promotion and
lies can get you anywhere, even a contract with the upper
rungs of our
government. Today I surely think the agents in which were
involved have
smartened up to this pretend company.

My example here is I've made myself a bad name being your
typical black hat.
When I turn it all around into a useful thing for society
nobody wants to
hire me except liars and frauds. The things many of us on
this list know can
save a company millions, the sad part is we get picked up by bull***
artists that cheapen the art in which we're skilled. I am
saddened when I
think about all the huge liars and morons that put "Network Security
Engineer" on their business card. Most people who look at my
resume aren't
qualified enough to read it, so I get overlooked because of
their ignorance
in my field and they pick based on who went to the best
school. I'm probably
not alone in this plight.

/end rant
/dance

-Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Teicher [mailto:mht3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 7:23 AM
To: pen-test@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Will the real hacker please stand up and raise their hand

Every once in a while, I read a story on the Internet, that
just doesn't add
up, as listed below, it appears most organization,
enterprise type companies
have policies preventing the hiring of known or identified
computer security
type people, other companies hire them openly or make up
some impressive
press statements stating they have hired one with rootfu or
some sort of
skillz, whatever they might be..

You be the judge after the reading the attached article..

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [ISN] Hackers and Employment
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 03:15:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: InfoSec News <alerts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Organization: InfoSec News - http://www.infosecnews.org/
To: isn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.line56.com/articles/default.asp?ArticleID=7766

By Demir Barlas
Line56
July 12, 2006

The reason many of us who grew up outside America found this country
charming and worthy of emulation was its principles, at
least as projected
on the movie screen. You can argue about their politics, but the
characters portrayed by John Wayne, for instance, operated
according to a
fixed code of ethics. They stood for what they considered right; they
never cheapened or sold themselves; and they lived (and died) with
integrity.

I encountered this America before I actually came here.

Perhaps this is why it is so easy for me to see what
native-born Americans
cannot understand about that their own country: that it is
rapidly falling
into decadence. When I say this, I'm not referring to some declining
standard of collective religious morality, but rather to personal
morality. All too many Americans stand ready to pimp
themselves, and the
system is now designed to reward rather than discourage
them. This is an
arrangement that the rest of the world rightly considers
hypocritical and,
despite all talk of globalism, will never emulate.

Let me give an example. I recently got an e-mail from Avaya,
one of whose
employees, Tom Porter, was leading a security team at the
World Cup. The
e-mail proudly advertises Porter as a "a former hacker [who]
got into the
U.S. government database on Roswell in the early 90s." Now
he has been
able to have a highly visible and well-paying job as chief
of Internet
security for FIFA and Avaya.

As soon as I got this e-mail, I recalled the case of Frank
Abagnale, Jr.,
the fraudster whose life was made into the movie Catch Me If You Can.

And, I admit, I got angry. I want to tell you why.

Some of my friends in the ninth grade were aspiring computer
hackers. I
suppose it was a natural impulse for a bunch of intelligent
boys cooped up
in an otherwise boring programming class. We tried a few
exploits but, in
the end, got caught. We were never that good in the first place, not
because we lacked intelligence but because, I am convinced,
of the ethos
that had survived into Denver even into the 1980s. The ethos
told us that
hacking was bad. We couldn't shrug this off our conscience, and so
conducted our exploits rather half-heartedly.

I've kept up with many of my classmates over the years.
There is, in the
group with which I am familiar, no one who has committed a
felony, gone to
jail, or refused to pay taxes. Everyone has walked the line. And our
reward? Most of us struggle along at meaningless
occupations, trying to
make ends meet -- punished, I maintain, by our consciences.

For America no longer rewards conscience. If you kill
someone, you will be
offered a book deal. If you impersonate a doctor and nearly cause the
death of a baby [like Abagnale], someone will make a comedic
movie about
you. If you become a hacker and endanger our government, you
will become a
consultant. If you sink a company, you will find a high
position in that
very government. Only competence at criminality and
self-promotion are
rewarded. The more vicious, heartless, and inept you are, the further
you'll go.

If you want to talk about anti-Americanism, you can't find a better
example. The culture of merit, sincerity, and principle that
once animated
this country is gone, and that impacts everyone from left to right.

Have you seen The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? John Wayne's
character
refuses to take the credit for an act that would, in that
day and age,
have made him famous. His principles dictate that he cannot engage in
self-promotion, which he leaves to Jimmy Stewart's character. Stewart
becomes a senator and marries a woman with whom Wayne was in
love; Wayne
retires from public life and dies alone.

Oh, but today! After shooting Valance, Wayne would have
gotten a publicity
agent, launched a blog, and gone on talk shows. He would
have done the
lecture circuit, opened a consultancy on how to shoot
outlaws, and sold
his "life rights" to a Hollywood studio.

I'm sorry to say it, but I hate what you might call the
post-Wayne America
(and I say this despite having radically different politics
from Wayne
himself). It's an upside-down country in which criminals become
celebrities while good, hard-working people struggle along
on dollars a
day. There is no longer any act divorced from its promotion. The only
principle is to gather as much money and fame as possible,
prostituting
yourself all the way, until you die.

I do not feel that a country can long endure such principles
or such acts
of decadence. They constitute a kind of rot that will, some day, turn
America into the equivalent of the moribund, cynical
countries of Western
Europe. Moreover, they are a gleeful betrayal of every
principle on which
this country stood for the first two centuries of its existence.

I suppose this article will be met by incomprehension from
people who have
absorbed their values from the post-Wayne moment in American
history. As a
historian, I am a professional pessimist, but I can't help
but feel that
these very people are only the tip of the iceberg; that, as
in the movie
15 Minutes (or, more apocalyptically, Death Race 2000),
crime will pay
even more than it does today.

It is worth concluding with a passage from Henry Miller's The
Air-Conditioned Nightmare, which captures the spirit of the changed
America to which I allude:

As to whether I have been deceived, disillusioned...The
answer is yes, I
suppose. I had the misfortune to be nourished by the dreams
and visions of
great Americans. Some other breed of man has won out. The
world which is
in the making fills me with dread....It is a world cluttered
with useless
objects which men and women, in order to be exploited and
degraded, are
taught to regard as useful....Whatever does not lend itself to being
bought and sold...is debarred. In this world the poet is
anathema, the
thinker a fool, and the man of vision a criminal.

Copyright 2000-2006 Line56.com


_________________________________
Attend the Black Hat Briefings and
Training, Las Vegas July 29 - August 3
2,500+ international security experts from 40 nations,
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