RE: Email Pen-testing

From: Chuck Herrin (me_at_chuckherrin.com)
Date: 03/22/04

  • Next message: Jerry Shenk: "RE: Sarca rainbow tables on-line cracking service" 
    To: "'R. DuFresne'" <dufresne@sysinfo.com>, "'Kevin'" <kevin@kevincomputers.com.sg>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:30:07 -0500

     
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    I have to agree. In my experience, it is rare that a company
    actually wants a "pen-test" in the sense of the term that Ron and I
    both use.
     
    More often, they want a portscan, a nice report, and a pat on the
    back. Pen-testing is expensive, inefficient (in that you only have
    to find one hole), and often does not provide an accurate picture of
    "how to secure" a network. IMNotSoHumbleO, the cycle in a perfect
    world would be:
    Vulnerability Assessment (the ISS and Nessus runs with pie charts and
    detailed reports), remediation (either the in-house admins or 3rd
    party people fix the holes), and then a pen-test to see if the fixes
    actually hardened the network.

    Unfortunately, very few companies can or will devote this kind of
    time and $$ to their security. They feel that their due diligence is
    satisfied by paying someone to run Nessus against their firewall and
    tell them everything's OK. As for real tests involving social
    engineering, dumpster diving, etc. many companies I've met with
    consider it a waste of effort. Actual quote: "We know you can get in
    if you try to trick our people. What we want is a real test of what
    a hacker or a script kiddie would do." <sigh> Smile politely, grit
    teeth. </sigh>.

    Until companies realize that their people can be their biggest asset
    or biggest liability in securing their network, attackers will always
    have the Social Engineering Trump Card.

    By the way, I can tell you from experience - Social Engineering and
    Password Cracking are 2 VERY SPECIFIC things that MUST be laid out in
    your proposal or scoping documentation from the start. These 2
    things will land you in a lot of trouble if explicit permission is
    not given before doing either one. A friend of mine almost went to
    jail for assuming they'd be OK with it. After the report was
    submitted, it turns out they weren't. Oops!

    Just my 2 cents,

    Chuck

    Www.chuckherrin.com

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: R. DuFresne [mailto:dufresne@sysinfo.com]
    Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:01 PM
    To: Kevin
    Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
    Subject: RE: Email Pen-testing

    It's about time the industry, IT as a whole comes to understand;

    a pentest is something much more then a simple port/vuln scan from
    outside.

    a simple port/vuln scan has it's value, as a way to probe for
    potential risks. A *real* pentest is an attempt to actually make use
    of potential holes, show they are in fact real risks, and will in
    fact be able to be exploited to gain illegal//unwanted entry into an
    org's systems and to their core data and apps. At lesat tince
    Mitnick's days social engineering has shown to be a major gateway to
    resources that should be better protected.

    A company asking for a mere set of potentials wants a sweet little
    report done on a port/vuln scan that anyone with minimal skills can
    accomplish. A companyt actually wishing to determine how well they
    have done their job of protecting assests might opt for a full
    pentest, with all the stops out of the bag. Advance warnings of each
    and every step is not a level playing filed and certainly does not
    resemble reality for sure.

    Thanks,

    Ron DuFresne

    On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Kevin wrote:

    > Well, human are the weakest link in the security ring.. and social
    > engineering is always the easiest (if not the best) technique to
    > open up loopholes in a security system.
    >
    > Although it's an area which requires most emphasizes and concern,
    > it is also the most sensitive area where security managers get
    > stuck often in.
    >
    > If the company is ok with social engineering in the pen test, then
    > I suppose it's ok.. It's ethical as long as you're doing it for a
    > cause not malicious and harmful.
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Blake [mailto:netspan@hotmail.com]
    > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:22 AM
    > To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
    > Subject: Email Pen-testing
    >
    >
    >
    > Wanted to get your opinion on something...
    >
    > Doing a pen-test for a small bank which was proving very difficult
    > to get it. A friend of mine suggested I send a backdoor trojan
    > attachment via an email. If they clicked on it, the backdoor
    > performs maybe a boxscan, grab passwords, and connects out to the
    > Internet. --Much like a virus.
    >
    > I think this type of testing is becoming more relevant nowadays,
    > especially with whats out there. It reinforces properly configured
    > antivirus software and user awareness.
    >
    > I spoke with a previous customer of mine about the idea. He said he
    > would be very upset if he was not told prior to that type of test
    > as part of normal pen-testing.
    >
    > Generally speaking, my code of ethics doesn't allow me to social
    > engineer. I don't like lying and misleading people. Also people
    > tend to hate you after they've been punk'd.
    >
    > What's your ideas on the email pen-tesing?
    >
    >
    > -Blake
    >
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
    > -- --
    > ---
    > Ethical Hacking at the InfoSec Institute. Mention this ad and get
    > $545 off
    > any course! All of our class sizes are guaranteed to be 10 students
    > or less
    > to facilitate one-on-one interaction with one of our expert
    > instructors. Attend a course taught by an expert instructor with
    > years of
    > in-the-field
    > pen testing experience in our state of the art hacking lab. Master
    > the skills
    > of an Ethical Hacker to better assess the security of your
    > organization. Visit us at:
    > http://www.infosecinstitute.com/courses/ethical_hacking_training.htm
    > l
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
    > ---- ----
    >
    >
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
    > -- -----
    > You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
    > Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the
    > latest techniques from a world-class research group.
    > www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
    > --------
    >

    - --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            admin & senior security consultant: sysinfo.com
                            http://sysinfo.com

    "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
    eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
    business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation."
                    -- Johnny Hart

    testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!

    - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    - -----
    You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
    Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest
    techniques from a world-class research group.
    www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1
    - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    - ------

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

    iQA/AwUBQF8+v6bL2AcPBTOlEQIfeQCdFc4xZuJn/LK/U8QYdkEx6MZINIUAoMq2
    1oLYE5xIc6jy6/k4Dnsvypp2
    =YaOc
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
    Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest
    techniques from a world-class research group.
    www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • Next message: Jerry Shenk: "RE: Sarca rainbow tables on-line cracking service"

    Relevant Pages

    • Re: Pen-Test and Social Engineering
      ... does begin to bridge the human-oriented side of an SE attack with the ... and so building the pen-test off SE ... Subject: Pen-Test and Social Engineering ... would not be capable of an *exact* functional reproduction (meaning, ...
      (Pen-Test)
    • Re: Email Pen-testing
      ... It is your job as a pen-tester to completely outline to the higher staff exactly what and where you will be doing, and that includes social engineering. ... management of the bank's job to educate their employees prior or after the pen-test. ... >pen testing experience in our state of the art hacking lab. ...
      (Pen-Test)
    • Re: physical security pentesting and social engineering
      ... I originally planned to email it for the social engineering thread, ... > I am trying to find some good resources for social engineering ... or just a friend of a friend sending a ... For a simple pen-test it won't be required - but that is only ...
      (Pen-Test)
    • Re: Pen-Test and Social Engineering
      ... I would definitely say that social engineering can be considered part of a pen-test. ... Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: ... Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! ...
      (Pen-Test)
    • RE: Pen-Test and Social Engineering
      ... may and should be a SE aspect of said Pen-Test. ... I know a place where the security guard barely ... Time of the attacks. ... Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: ...
      (Pen-Test)