RE: maybe a simple problem

From: george.wasgatt@insurity.com
Date: 10/04/02


From: george.wasgatt@insurity.com
To: SRobinson@HIPUSA.com, george.wasgatt@insurity.com, greg.reber@astechconsulting.com, afison@brit-tex.net, incidents@securityfocus.com
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:47:34 -0400 


You are surely right, and if I had actually thought it though before writing
I would have remembered. A normal GHOST image doesn't bother backing up
unused space just the stuff the file system says is in use. And yes, there
is a bit by bit option that I've had to use when there was a damaged file
system or corrupt disk sectors were encountered.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson@HIPUSA.com]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:22 AM
To: 'george.wasgatt@insurity.com'; greg.reber@astechconsulting.com;
afison@brit-tex.net; incidents@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: maybe a simple problem

I'm not sure if the newest version does a bit by bit copy. I can't remember
the switch off hand either since we never used it in my work for a forensics
tool. However, I can try to find it as I believe it DOES have the physical
capability. Historically, Ghost produced a logical "image or mirror" of the
drive, it was not a forensic "bit by bit" copy. It only did a logical image
unless specfically told otherwise, i.e. a physical bit copy. For example, a
core build using GHOST was used to roll out 100 workstattions. The physical
drive size in each machine could vary say from 12GB to 20GB, howver, the
GHOST image was 6GB so this would be your logical drive. Howver,
forensically speaking, this is not your TRUE drive that must be copied.
There could be 6-14GB difference and could present issues in court since you
now don't have the "original" drive.

You must be careful when doing a copy that may have potential litligation
issues, civil or criminal. A logical copy of the drive (normally what you
get using ghost) while this is good for productin is NOT good for forensics.
You must make sure that you can recreate deleted files and obtain the miriad
of pieces located in swap, unallocated and free space onthe ENTIRE physical
drive not just the logical pieces.

Safeback, snapback, encase etc have stood up in court. I am not sure about
GHOST. It could if you have that switch (which I can't remember w/o some
research) and you can prove that the physical copy from GHOST is identical
to that of the original drive, i.e # of sectors, bits, etc. Suggested you
hash the drives using MD5 hash or similar. Even using safeback, etc. you
should still verify that you have made the forensic copy not the logical
copy as they give you options to do so.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: george.wasgatt@insurity.com [mailto:george.wasgatt@insurity.com]
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 7:36 AM
To: Robinson, Sonja; greg.reber@astechconsulting.com;
afison@brit-tex.net; incidents@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: maybe a simple problem

What is the certain switch in GHOST and why is it necessary. I thought that
GHOST defaults produced a saved copy of the disk drive bit by bit the same
as the original.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson@HIPUSA.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:04 PM
To: 'Greg Reber'; Andrew Fison; incidents@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: maybe a simple problem

IF you alter the files onthe machine they will not hold up in court. You
must do a bit level back up which is normally done using a tool such as
safeback, snapback, encase ,etc. You canuse Ghost if you have a certain
switch set but I would not suggest it. Normally you must be physically
present to do so.

1) DO not boot the machine or do a back up. You may destroy the files and
evidence you need by doing so
2) Using an approved FORENSIC method/tool (safeback, snapback, encase,
SOloMasster, etc. Make TWO forensic copies. 1 for them to put back in
their machine and 1 for you to use as a back up to restore as many times as
necessary if you are going drive to drive. If oyu are using a non-intrusive
means of analysis such as encase then you can do analysis on this drive as
long AS YOU KEEP THE ORIGINAL COPY IN CUSTODY. I always suggest and
original and a forensic copy (unused) just in case a drive fails.

Depending upon the cost (and potential loss), Ontrack can grabthe stuff
remotely for you. Depends onwhat it's worth to your client.

E-mail me off line for more info. I specialize in forensics.

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Reber [mailto:greg.reber@astechconsulting.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:16 PM
To: Andrew Fison; incidents@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: maybe a simple problem

Andrew - if there is a suspicion that the client's machine has been
compromised, they should stop using it and have you do some quick forensics.
Back up files that they need, but not the whole HD.
http://biatchux.dmzs.com/ is a great site for free forensics tools.

-greg

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-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Fison [mailto:afison@brit-tex.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:37 AM
To: incidents@securityfocus.com
Subject: maybe a simple problem

I have a client who believes that thier win98 pc has been hacked with some
remote control software. They are pretty vague and not close buy so i cannot
look at the machine all the time. I asked them to do netstat when they think
they are being spied on but as yet they have not given me anything useful.

I think there is reason to believe them as the owner is involed in a hostile
boardroom take over of his company by some other entities, whilst this is
legal, they have used other underhand methods against my customer before and
they are trying to force him to sign over the business to them a little too
swiftly.

this all started when his wife was suing the pc, and a telescop came on the
screen and then disapeared, since then the machine crashes, documents
pertaing to the business have gone missing etc, any clues to what this
telescope could be?

yours

andrew

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