Re: Should webservers, eg. IIS 6 have anti--virus installed on them?

From: Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] (sbradcpa_at_pacbell.net)
Date: 07/21/05

  • Next message: Thor (Hammer of God): "Re: Should webservers, eg. IIS 6 have anti--virus installed on them?" 
    Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:57:23 -0700
To: "Wozny, Scott (US - New York)" <swozny@deloitte.com>

    Can you honestly say that you vet every dat file that comes your way in
    the same manner that your do security patch testing on all of your
    systems? Show of virtual hands on this list... how many honestly have
    the resources to put the same testbed energy into a/v sig updates as
    they do patch deployment? Test it on lab settings/virtual
    system/canaries in the office and then roll it out... for all your sized
    operations? There are some firms that indeed do this. There are many,
    however, that do not. I personally don't have the resources [nor the
    a/v deployment set in such a way] that I can do this. Nor do I feel
    that the few issues that I have had with allowing a/v to immediately
    deploy versus the issues I might have if I don't automate the process
    mean that I'm changing my methods.

    But...obviously neither did several railroads in Japan, a few Japanese
    newspapers and other folks that were also affected and obviously didn't
    vet the a/v sigs either.

    As often as they are updating these days, the risk of not pushing them
    out as they come in has to be weighed with the potential for issues when
    not testing them. I'm sorry but this was a A/V dat sig update that
    affected the XP sp2 the hardest of all. Trend admitted they screwed up.
    As fast as that nailed and flatlined my entire network... there's no way
    that should have left Trend's doorstep and been pushed to boxes. It was
    an immediate CPU freeze up that had me booting into safe mode to get my
    machines back in working mode.

    Even Microsoft has expanded their patch testing process to include
    external more real life testers. Sorry, but I do not accept that this
    dat file freeze up was in any way an acceptable screw up ...and
    obviously and unfortunately neither does Wall Street and analysts ...etc....

    All I'm saying is we've [I've?] grown complacent and many of us forget
    that potentially every hour on the hour new untested code is on our
    boxes. Add that to your risk factors and decide accordingly.

    Show me an a/v software and this year few of them haven't had their own
    security issues as well.

    It's called a bit of risk analysis... what's the benefit....what's the
    risk. And no matter what size of firm you are... we all play the game,
    we just come to different conclusions. Ergo this thread which asked...
    what's the risk of webservers having a/v on them?

    I think the answer is.. it depends. There may not be a best practice
    and instead each one of us needs to perform our own risk analysis and
    decide accordingly [I really don't like 'best practices' as a concept
    anyway - what's best for me... won't be best for the guy down the street]

    Nah... Dos 5, Wordstar and Lotus 123. Now those were killer apps... I
    still have a Compaq Portable luggable in our museum that boots if you
    want to try it. In the meantime, excuse me while I go update my
    Firefox..again and ensure my Greasemonkey is on whatever version that
    isn't vulnerable.

    Wozny, Scott (US - New York) wrote:

    >Are you actually condemning AV because administrators blindly trusted
    >the AV sig updates they received and pushed them to live systems without
    >testing them at all? Who, precisely, wasn't doing their due diligence?
    >
    >
    >Computing is complicated. If one isn't implementing and following
    >procedures to protect oneself from screw-ups in other organizations one
    >depends upon, then we all really ought to roll back to DOS 6.22 and stay
    >there.
    >
    >If I misunderstood your implication, please correct me. Otherwise, I
    >intend to keep AV in my bag of tricks.
    >
    >Scott
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: focus-ms-return-8320-swozny=deloitte.com@securityfocus.com
    >[mailto:focus-ms-return-8320-swozny=deloitte.com@securityfocus.com] On
    >Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
    >Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 3:32 AM
    >To: Harlan Carvey
    >Cc: focus-ms@securityfocus.com; jeff@shawgo.com
    >Subject: Re: Should webservers, eg. IIS 6 have anti--virus installed on
    >them?
    >
    >
    >Not to mention ..if you were anywhere near a live system at 3:45 p.m
    >Pacific time on a certain Friday when someone didn't do their due
    >diligence and flatlined every single one of my workstations and even
    >nailed my server....you might make you look at antivirus in a new
    >light....
    >
    >A/V is just introduction of new... possibly untested code on a machine
    >.... possibly every hour on the hour....
    >
    >http://silverstr.ufies.org/blog/archives/000844.html
    >
    >Harlan Carvey wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>So far, this is has been an interesting discussion,
    >>but beneath it all, I'm seeing what I think is a
    >>disturbing trend.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>Antivirus needs to be part of the overall security
    >>>plan for all Windows machines - it's just part of
    >>>the cost of doing business - the cost of the
    >>>software, maintenance, and CPU overhead.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>I'm seeing absolutist statements like the one above,
    >>and it bothers me.
    >>
    >>If a web server is just a web server, the content is
    >>served to the client, going outbound...not coming into
    >>the server. If the purpose of the system is to take
    >>known-good pages (from the owner) and make them
    >>available to the public (over ports 80 and 443), then
    >>what is the point of A/V software?
    >>
    >>I'm seeing a lot of people say that A/V software is
    >>necessary, and that it's part of a 'holistic' or
    >>'defense in depth' approach, but this really sounds
    >>more like Dilbert's "buzz word bingo" than anything
    >>else.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>Certainly, servers need to be patched, firewalled,
    >>>isolated, and locked down. Additionally, code
    >>>should be audited for vulnerability to XSS and SQL
    >>>injection.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>Yes, without a doubt. This is all part of good
    >>administration.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>None of these things are perfect. Not that AV is
    >>>perfect, but it is another layer of defense - making
    >>>it part of that "Defense in Depth" strategy.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>But, defense against what?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>AV has grown into more than just defense against
    >>>viruses. It is often effective against worm code,
    >>>and some AV has identified common hacking tools
    >>>(e.g. - NetCat) as something that doesn't belong on
    >>>most systems. You can argue the viability of this
    >>>move, but most companies - if they have a security
    >>>team - have less that 0.1% of their machines which
    >>>maybe should have it there.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>"something that doesn't belong on most systems"? How
    >>does it get there? If a web server is properly
    >>configured and managed, then perhaps the most likely
    >>means of infection is from the administrator
    >>himself...and in such cases, A/V software is useless.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>AV needs to be part of the cost of running Windows -
    >>>for better or for worse.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>Again, I'm seeing this as an approach that's being
    >>parrotted, rather than thought out. I'm not saying
    >>that MS products are perfect...not at all. But what I
    >>am saying is that using proper administration
    >>principles, those that have been espoused for well
    >>beyond the past decade, paying additional money to add
    >>yet another software package to a web server simply
    >>doesn't make good business sense.
    >>
    >>Why pay more money for another application to
    >>maintain, and another set of logs that you're not
    >>reviewing anyway?
    >>
    >>Several years ago, Dave LeBlanc set up an IIS 4.0
    >>server in accordance with simple common sense, and it
    >>was not vulnerable to Code Red...a full year before
    >>Code Red was launched.
    >>
    >>When Code Red was launched, A/V software would not
    >>have helped. However, if the .hta script mapping had
    >>been disabled the day before Code Red came out, then
    >>guess what? No problems.
    >>
    >>Should systems have A/V software in place?
    >>Maybe...depending upon the function and purpose of the
    >>system. Does it make sense? Does it make good
    >>business sense? What's the business
    >>reason/justification for installing another software
    >>package (for $$) over disabling current functionality
    >>(which doesn't cost anything)?
    >>
    >>Harlan
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>------------------------------------------
    >>Harlan Carvey, CISSP
    >>"Windows Forensics and Incident Recovery"
    >>http://www.windows-ir.com
    >>http://windowsir.blogspot.com
    >>------------------------------------------
    >>
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    -- 
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