Re: Passive OS Fingerprinting was Cisco CTR etc

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To: "Teicher, Mark (Mark)" <teicher@avaya.com>, "Ron Gula" <rgula@tenablesecurity.com>, <focus-ids@securityfocus.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:20:43 -0000

Mark,
Between you and I (& the rest of the list) I used CyberCop a few years back
and cut off an entire network. Not, as you'd imagine, through testing for
DOS vulnerabilities but the shear weight of the traffic. Learned a lot that
day! Also prompted me to create the distributed scanners page.

 If I remember correctly many of the Cybercop scans contain the word
"cybercop" in the data of the packet allowing easy detection. I'm trying to
think of an IDS that doesn't detect it and can't

take care
-andy
shame about the beer!

Talisker Security Tools Directory
http://www.securitywizardry.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Teicher, Mark (Mark)" <teicher@avaya.com>
To: "Andy Cuff [Talisker]" <lists@securitywizardry.com>; "Ron Gula"
<rgula@tenablesecurity.com>; <focus-ids@securityfocus.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Passive OS Fingerprinting was Cisco CTR etc

> Andy,
>
> Yes, it if one got it to network map properly after a scan. The issue
> with CyberCop Scanner 5.0, that is VERY VERY NOISY. It left little
> tidbits all over the network that a network scan was being conducted.
> Some network based ids and firewalls would pick up some of the CyberCop
> fingerprints but not all. Even the Sn0rt signature only picks one or
> two CyberCop fingerprints.
>
> To answer your question, yes CyberCop used active fingerprinting
>
> /mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Cuff [Talisker] [mailto:lists@securitywizardry.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 6:49 AM
> To: Teicher, Mark (Mark); Ron Gula; focus-ids@securityfocus.com
> Cc: Seanor, Joseph (Joe)
> Subject: Re: Passive OS Fingerprinting was Cisco CTR etc
>
>
> Mark,
> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Cybercop use active fingerprinting to
> generate the 3D model not passive?
>
> -andy
> Talisker Security Tools Directory http://www.securitywizardry.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Teicher, Mark (Mark)" <teicher@avaya.com>
> To: "Andy Cuff [Talisker]" <talisker@securitywizardry.com>; "Ron Gula"
> <rgula@tenablesecurity.com>; <focus-ids@securityfocus.com>
> Cc: "Seanor, Joseph (Joe)" <jseanor@avaya.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Passive OS Fingerprinting was Cisco CTR etc
>
>
> Not quite sure if they are ahead of the curve or just taking advertising
> a feature many people didn't realize was a possibility of the various
> Enterprise Management Systems available. Cabletron Spectrum had a
> network mapping feature based on ttl's a long time ago. Very few people
> even deployed Cabletron Spectrum. The other was ANMS (Automatic Network
> Monitoring System) a bash, perl, ksh scripting network architecture that
> is still or was used by many large telecommunications carriers.
>
> A most recent attempt at network mapping was the 3-d mapping option in
> Cybercop 5.0
>
> Although not as nifty as the comet tail network mapping RNA offers. :)
>
> I will be in the southeast quadrant of the country that week.
>
> /m
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Cuff [Talisker] [mailto:talisker@securitywizardry.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:10 AM
> To: Teicher, Mark (Mark); Ron Gula; focus-ids@securityfocus.com
> Subject: Re: Passive OS Fingerprinting was Cisco CTR etc
>
>
> Hey Mark,
> LTNS ! I was under the impression that anti-sniff was (thinking of a
> polite
> word) prone to false positives. Furthermore, I'd be tempted to deploy a
> passive OS fingerprinting tool on a Data In Nothing Out (DINO) tap, this
> would make the detection of the pf tool even more difficult through
> such measures.
>
> I think most IDS vendors are developing such technology (with one almost
> definite exception) But as usual Ron and Marty are ahead of the drag
> curve. I think it's really s3xy but as my wife will testify I'm sad and
> I need a life ;o) So s3xy that I have included a page detailing them all
> at http://www.securitywizardry.com/osfp.htm
>
> P0f
> Ettercap
> ARCHAEOPTERYX
> RNA
> NEVO
> Prelude
> pfprintd
> Disco
> There was one that was a predecessor I think to P0f but it is no longer
> supported so I left it out
>
> cheers Mark
> Are you anywhere near DC 11/12 Dec for a beer?
> -andy cuff
> Talisker Security Tools Directory http://www.securitywizardry.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Teicher, Mark (Mark)" <teicher@avaya.com>
> To: "Ron Gula" <rgula@tenablesecurity.com>;
> <focus-ids@securityfocus.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:49 PM
> Subject: RE: NeVO Scan Application was RE: Cisco CTR
>
>
> > Ron,
> >
> > Didn't @Stake produce AntiSniff to detect passive type monitoring
> > applications ??
> >
> >
> >
> > /mark
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Gula [mailto:rgula@tenablesecurity.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:45 PM
> > To: Teicher, Mark (Mark); focus-ids@securityfocus.com
> > Subject: Re: NeVO Scan Application was RE: Cisco CTR
> >
> >
> > Woah ... no-one should be able to detect NeVO or RNA (or a NIDS) just
> > by sitting there. You need to do real complex things invoking timing
> > and other checks to find hosts that are passively listening.
> >
> > Desktop agents like Sygate will see scans from Nessus, Nmap, pings,
> > etc. but they will have a hard time detecting passive analysis of
> > their network traffic.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:27 PM 11/20/2003 -0700, Teicher, Mark (Mark) wrote:
> > >Ron,
> > >
> > >Interesting, another lightweight and inexpensive monitoring/scanning
> > >software ?? Wondering if the Enterprise/Desktop firewall products
> > >can detect NeVO scans as they can nmap scans. It will be very
> > >interesting to see how Desktop firewalls in the corporate environment
>
> > >stand up to NeVO scans..
> > >
> > >Something to try in the lab against all those Enterprise/Desktop
> > >Firewall products.. :)
> > >
> > >/mark
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Ron Gula [mailto:rgula@tenablesecurity.com]
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:38 AM
> > >To: focus-ids@securityfocus.com
> > >Subject: Re: Cisco CTR
> > >
> > >
> > >At 04:54 AM 11/20/2003 -0700, Mark Teicher wrote:
> > > >Just curious on how NeVO compares to Intrusec Expose ??
> > >
> > >I have not seen Expose recently, but my thought was that it was a
> > >continuous low-volume active scan that could launch other
> > >vulnerability
> >
> > >scanners when change was detected. NeVO does the same sort of thing,
> > >but passively through network packet/session monitoring. Besides
> > >looking for change in the network, it also looks for the
> > >vulnerability.
> >
> > >NeVO needs to wait for a packet to be sent before it sees a host,
> > >port,
> >
> > >client, server or vulnerability. If folks deploy NeVO with a
> > >Lightning Console, they can launch distributed Nessus scans if they
> > >see a system or a vulnerability data that they would like to follow
> > >up with an active scan.
> > >
> > >Ron Gula
> > >Tenable Network Security
> > >http://www.tenablesecurity.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >--
> > >-
> > >---
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >---
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> -
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> -
> >
> >
>
>

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