RE: [Full-Disclosure] CyberInsecurity: The cost of Monopoly

From: Joe (mvp_at_joeware.net)
Date: 09/28/03

  • Next message: Jonathan A. Zdziarski: "RE: [Full-Disclosure] CyberInsecurity: The cost of Monopoly" 
    To: <full-disclosure@lists.netsys.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:42:57 -0400

    > You're _assuming_ I am Anti-MS. I may be Anti-MS-Politics but am not
    > bent against the operating system. I

    Note I said anti-MS, not anti-Windows. You are certainly anti-MS, your
    anti-Windows or not is still a little shakey but I would say yes, you should
    come out of the closet on it. It appears a lot of the problem may have been
    trauma with WFWG that you have been unable to shake without professional
    assistance or possibly you tripped and hurt yourself on the registry once. I
    don't know and don't intend to help you work through it. Not that I don't
    care, I just, well, Ermmm, I lied, I don't care. :o)

    > LOL vmware - now there's a great finger sniffing way to evaluate another
    > operating system. You cannot possibly know anything about another
    operating
    > system unless you have run it on your personal machine (as the primary
    > operating system) for at least a month.

    Actually I tested W2K3 in VM for over a year prior to using it on any real
    hardware and had a really good understanding of what was going on once I
    moved it to a physical device (an Dell 8500 laptop). I also do a majority of
    my dev testing there and my machine I VPN into the office on is a virtual
    W2K3 machine though that one is in VPC so I can test that product out. I
    guess it falls to personal ability. I did run Linux directly on a PC for a
    few months but that was a few years ago. After that I decided I had better
    uses for that machine and stuck Linux in a VM and it hasn't left it even
    when I reloaded a couple of times.

    > Judging by your bentness towards
    > Windows, I would surmise you haven't given a serious look to another
    operating
    > system since windows for workgroups.

    You would be incorrect. But that's ok, I realize you don't have an issue
    with that.

    > Isn't Microsoft doing the same thing? How else would a corporation come
    > to such an idiotic conclusion that it was cheaper to run Microsoft Windows

    > on an enterprise than to run Linux.

    Well a corporation would actually truly look into it and see that most of
    the "its free" talk is pure and utter drivel when it comes to a corporate
    environment. I've seen several reports within our company put together by
    internal Linux bigots who openly admit that Linux isn't ready for larger
    companies of 30k+ desktops though it is something people should keep an eye
    on because they may get it right some day and it can always be used to try
    and pressure MS into reducing costs (the true value of the threat of Linux)
    and it probably could be used in a couple of Niche areas such as static HTML
    serving. The company actually made a huge attempt with the help of IBM and
    others to develop a solution to try and use Linux with standards based email
    but it failed miserably due to no real corporate level integration for
    calendaring and mail without touching every client in the world and writing
    custom plugins and software as well as reeducating hundreds of thousands of
    users. Not really free or even cheap when you think of it that way huh. In
    fact it is cheaper to buy the licenses and deploy a new Windows OS than to
    jump to something "not MS" when you factor all of the costs involved. If you
    started a company from the ground up, it might be cheaper to do it with
    Linux. However if your employees are all familiar and comfortable with
    Windows it may be costlier. If I was starting a company I don't know if it
    would be a gamble I would take though I would consider it.

    I would have to say the file sharing options are pretty fun under Linux as
    well. Always hearing issues with Samba from the corporate crowd unless it is
    only used for a 1 or 2 people sharing thing though even then I hear bitching
    because they have to hard code things that we sometimes change. It must be
    them though because I run it at home perfectly and if it runs in the home or
    the small business, it obviously will work fine in an Enterprise of 250k
    people. How the heck can't it? I mean its free and its open source with
    hundreds of thousands of developers "supporting" it. Why wouldn't a global 5
    multi-billion dollar company put all of its marbles in that basket with no
    real owner to beat up when the software completely screws up and you need a
    fix NOW so you can make washers and dryers again.

    > My laptop came with a free copy of Windows XP

    I am thinking it probably wasn't free.... :op I must thank you, your OS
    purchase in some small way probably helped pay for my MSDN Universal
    Subscription.

    > managed and worked with IT departments for large corporations ranging from

    > hundreds to thousands of end-users - a majority of which ran Windows.
    > I am well aware of what Windows is both capable of and fails

    This may sound mean, but thousands is not large. That is medium at best.
    Scaling an app or a supporting a server environment for thousands is
    considerably different than scaling one for a large company.

    > and have unfortunately also made the mistake of deploying it for web
    services

    I will agree that IIS hasn't been the most effective, they are working on
    it. Did you try Apache on Windows? Because really, it isn't Linux running
    the web services, it is Apache.

    > and other mission critical services (a mistake I am not likely to make
    again). As a desktop

    Good to see that you are open to looking at changes yourself... You
    automatically discount the company with the largest software R&D budget in
    the world used to find new ways of doing things or adapting ways that others
    couldn't effectively market and sell.

    > Aren't you the special one =) I bet you get invited to all of Bill's
    > Christmas parties.

    Nope, but I wouldn't mind. He is an interesting person. He would probably
    throw me out within an hour though as I beat him up on Exchange and some
    other silly things. Our conversation would go like this. It is a pleasure to
    meet you, you have done incredible things, if it weren't for you all of
    these open source religious crack pot monks would be sitting in the basement
    wondering what else they could play with because we would most likely STILL
    not have cheap bountiful hardware and most people would still be thinking
    digital watches were a pretty cool thing. So was that tractor racing thing
    you allegedly did down south for real? Now about Exchange, why the hell did
    you guys.....

    > the Builder" button. Apparently a piece of paper is worth nothing to you,

    > but an icon apparently makes

    Hmm I am thinking you didn't read what I wrote.

    > pencil set too? Seriously, get over it. It says about as much about
    > Microsoft's respect for you as a discount card at your favorite grocery
    store.

    I'll try, thanks for the encouragement. :o) Again, try to read the posts
    you respond to.

    > I've got no desire for any type of formal recognition;

    I consider a paycheck pretty formal and I have a desire for it. Again, I am
    not here for the religious ferver of correcting the world of its evil ways.
    I am here for the cash. And yes, I can do an excellent job and still only be
    in it for the money. In fact, doing an excellent job makes sure people pay
    me well for doing the job. You don't have to pray to your OS and its maker
    to do a good job. You simply have to show up every day and make it so people
    can do their jobs properly.

    > Sure, but most wannabe UNIX users don't make it past the initial
    interview.

    Sure, their beards aren't long enough to meet the minimum Unix requirement
    yet...

    > Microsoft GUI experts are a dime a dozen.

    Unfortunately I absolutely can not argue this. But then GUI and expert in
    the same line is probably an Oxymoron. I have definitely met far more bad
    Windows Admins than good ones. On the positive side, if there were a lot of
    good ones, I probably wouldn't get paid as well. On the positive side, you
    can usually identify a good Windows Admin faster than you can identify a
    good Unix Admin. You simply watch to see if the Windows guy opens a command
    prompt and leaves it open. For Unix you have to catch them in the middle of
    a screw up.

    > I know you'll argue .NET is supposed

    Look at my web page again, I won't argue Dot Net anything. You seem to think
    I am pro-MS and I feel everything they do is the bees knees. I am simply an
    MVP which again was their doing, not mine. I am probably more intelligently
    vocal on their shortcomings and what they need to do to correct than you
    will ever be or capable of being. Actually I was pretty amazed when they
    made me one because when I was nominated and made an MVP I was busy in the
    newsgroups tanning MS's hide for bestowing Code Red and Nimda on us as a
    global computer community and asking why the hell they thought turning
    everything on and leaving everything open by default was anywhere near
    something that made sense. I also, for the record, abhor vbscript and VB and
    use it only when I can't chew my arm off to get away from it. Though I have
    no problem with others using it as that is their choice.

    > "You obviously" don't have any _real_ experience with unix

    You spelled "I think you" incorrectly, there isn't an O in think.

    > whatsoever. This can be done in a matter of minutes, even without all the
    > pretty GUI tools that are now provided. Hell, in a few minutes you can
    set
    > up a RedHat Linux box to act as a Windows server so your Windows machines
    > can connect to it.

    Give the linux cd to your mom. Have her set up a small home network with it
    in a matter of minutes, note your mouth should be taped shut for the
    duration which you will probably find she may enjoy. I'm thinking you may
    *possiby* understand what I am saying after a few hours and she still
    doesn't have that file sharing environment up and running on the home
    network. My mom did it with her XP cd. I only had to tell her to go to Best
    Buy and pick up a cable router and hook that up for the outside connectivity
    and to tie all the PC's together. None of the Linux flavors are to that
    point yet. Hell the last build I did didn't even correctly set up swap which
    means no more just click to install loads of Linux for me for a bit.

    > You know, I haven't talked to anyone at HP lately whose first language is
    > English. Apparently they moved all their operations to India. It
    probably
    > had something to do with your enormous endowment I'm sure.

    Definitely getting bad in that company. Carly has sunk that company. I was
    proud to be fired and knew that they were going to crash and burn on the
    project I was working on once I was gone, hell with their management, I
    could barely keep it from crashing and burning while I was there working my
    ass off. The day I was canned I went to the bar and celebrated while my
    friends that were stuck there stopped by and looked pained. All of the
    coding I believe is going (or in the process of going) over to India now. I
    am wondering how long it will take for HP to realize that screwup. I have
    also heard rumours that HP has now picked up Chrysler/DCX to supply them IT
    services. I feel for Chrysler, whomever made that decision better start
    updating the resume right now. I'll put money down that by the time that
    contract is 50% completed Chrysler is going to be trying to find some way of
    getting out of it. I've seen it before with HP. The one thing they do do
    well is threaten litigation, I'm thinking it is because they have practice
    in that area.

    > I guess that's where your MVP patch comes in handy

    Actually it does. Not worth explaining to you though as it is beneath you.
    :o)

    > And what is the complexity of this program? My hello world program
    > still works too =)

    Several programs actually. Mostly gear combination selection calculations
    for 40/50's era excello thread grinders doing non-standard screw thread
    grinding with runout tolerances of less than several ten thousandths per 20
    feet of material and also similar things for metal lathes though at lower
    tolerances. There are some overwire calculation pieces going on using the
    Vogel set of mathematical abstract models as well. Someone came in at one
    point to sell them a supposedly more up to date version of the program that
    they had written and put a nice gui around. They bought it for something
    like $10k and then promptly ruined several very expensive pieces because
    they weren't bright enough to have compared the output with what my programs
    put out and didn't know it was screwed until the parts were made. They went
    with that program because I wouldn't update the program for that little
    money. Anyway, while they are relatively simple programs compared to
    something like say Windows 2003 Server they are definitely above the hello
    world variety.

    > I never said it would knock MS off the top - only unethical politics

    I would rather work on whatever system is on top. Far greater market
    penetration, bigger customer base. Again, I'm here for the cash. I leave
    religious faith and ferver to those who like and/or need it. I have no
    desire to go around spouting the word of Bill, Linus, nor God. They can all
    do their own spouting.

    > thread, were the ideal candidate for a good ass-whoopin.

    And when exactly would that be occurring? I would prefer that you not think
    about nor speak about my ass anymore.

    > grade competitive banter though about your salary. Most people who have
    > to resort to such elementary sarcasm do it because they know they're full
    > of crap. Not that I really care.

    Nope if I was doing that I would state the salary and listen to you call me
    a liar while you took out your Windows XP CD and stomped on it for a bit and
    then ran around in circles with chicken bones chanting, it isn't fair our OS
    is better it isn't fair our OS is better it isn't fair our OS is better. You
    asked the question of what a Windows person made and I could only fully
    speak to myself and what I had seen and said I was doing well. Prior to that
    I simply said I was well compensated and that is why I was in the business I
    was in. If I could make more money as a male prostitute I would do it (why
    hello ladies!). Unfortunately I don't have any misunderstanding of my
    physical beauty and really don't have that kind of energy though as a side
    job it might be something to consider.

    > Nah my biggest worry is whether or not I'll have enough RAM for
    > your next email...

    Issues with your Linux laptop?

    > <sixth-grade competitive banter>and whether or not it's time to close
    > down the pool for the winter</sixth-grace competitive banter>.

    Good question though I would say we should call the pool company out and
    have them shut the pools down. Just stick to the hot tub for the rest of the
    year.

    > I have several wallpapers active - were you referring to a particular
    > window, or the desktop? You probably meant Desktop since that's the
    > only wallpaper you're familiar with =)

    I was actually referring to the walls of your efficiency. =)

    >> intelligent hottie whose worst worry is what color
    >> to dye her hair this week.
    > So you prefer emotionally shallow pets?

    I actually missed this comment the last time. No, I don't prefer emotionally
    shallow pets. I prefer intelligent insightful well spoken women who realize
    that as long as they have regular bowel movement, food in their belly,
    clothes on their back (well sometimes not), and water readily available for
    drinking all other issues and problems and concerns are temporary and should
    be considered as overhead versus anything real to worry about. Some of the
    things that go into the overhead category are OS-religion,
    religion-religion, politics, war, soap operas, Opra, bad hair days, split
    ends, howling pets, mean sales clerks, poor drivers, whiny children, rain,
    acid rain, snow, sleet, fog, poor television shows, bad jokes, the help not
    cleaning the linens just right, the bed not being made correctly, rush hour,
    porn site popups, spam, unshaven grounds keepers, pets who can't seem to hit
    the pottie paper, the possibility of being hit by a) jet b) nuclear warhead
    c) biological or chemical weapon d) asteroid e) semi-truck f) foul ball,
    whether or not the neighbors are happy with how often the lawn is mowed, any
    and all relatives who feel that they have been given the short end of the
    stick and should be taken care of since someone else has more "luck".

    Take it easy Jon. I hope you find what you are looking for. Its been a real
    hoot. I will go back to lurking on this group and mostly purging the
    entries.

    Now I am off to eat the turkey drumstick I brought home from the renfest and
    watch a movie. If you are interested, we took the truck. :o)

       joe

    -----Original Message-----
    From: full-disclosure-admin@lists.netsys.com
    [mailto:full-disclosure-admin@lists.netsys.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan A.
    Zdziarski
    Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 7:13 PM
    To: Joe
    Cc: full-disclosure@lists.netsys.com

    > Cool thanks! I decided to add a link to the site just before I posted
    > so it would give the anti-MS folks something to attack. I am glad I
    > could be of assistance to you.

    You're _assuming_ I am Anti-MS. I may be Anti-MS-Politics but am not bent
    against the operating system. I certainly understand why many hot dog
    stands run Windows, and think it's a dandy OS for desktops and pocketpc's.
    It is crap for servers, and is getting closer to becoming inferior for the
    desktop as well thanks to the efforts of the open source community.

    <SNIP>

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