Re[2]: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

From: gmx (
Date: 11/13/04

  • Next message: Paul D. Robertson: "Re[2]: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry"
    To: ArkanoiD <>
    Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:37:29 +0100

    Hello ArkanoiD,

    i think, dividing the world into 'good' and 'bad' is an american
    model... what is good ? What is bad ? Is good what conforms to our law
    or justice ?If yes, it is good when morders are freed because of
    missed proves ?
    Is it good or bad if an 'hacker' breaks into a secret project, and
    gets information eg. about HI-Virus, that its not natural, its a weapon
    ? Is that really 'bad' ? To say the truth ?
    So what is 'good' and 'bad' , we are using those terms, without
    thinking what they define...
    I could count more examples, but its not the right place for taht, i
    just wanted to point on some definitions.
    Thanks for your patience.

    Wednesday, November 10, 2004, 5:41:02 PM, you wrote:

    <==============Original message text===============
    A> I *WAS* a "bad guy" for a long time. But they did never catch me, so my
    A> criminal record is clean ;-)

    A> I'd even say "bad" and "good" are just players in the game. And it would be
    A> unwise to blame black hats for lack of ethics: some of them follow their ethics,
    A> some do not. Just like white hats.

    A> There is only one problem with hiring ex-hackers as security professionals:
    A> most of them have no clue in creating reasonable treat models, must of them are
    A> just good in finding *vulnerabilities* and fixing those, but creating secure design
    A> may be beyond their abilities.

    A> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 03:29:38PM -0400, Mike Smith wrote:
    >> <de-lurk>
    >> The man committed crimes, was caught and convicted, and served the time awarded
    >> by various governments. From what I read, he has been clean for a quarter of a
    >> century. Indeed, he has helped police authorities fight criminal activities
    >> such as he once engaged in.
    >> I guess the issue is how long does it take before one accepts that a convicted
    >> person has truly reformed? If the answer is "forever," then what is the point
    >> in ever letting him out of jail? Can criminals never acknowledge the error of
    >> their ways and return to civilized society? Can we not learn anything from
    >> them?
    >> Here in Canada, for instance, a convicted person must serve his full sentence
    >> and remain "of good conduct" for three to five years (depending on the offence)
    >> afterwards, and then he can apply for a pardon, which sets aside his criminal
    >> record (but does not destroy it; by the way, some offences, notably violent
    >> ones, are not pardonable). The thinking is that the person has "paid his debt
    >> to society" and is entitled to a relatively unfettered attempt to contribute
    >> once again.
    >> This is _not_ to suggest that I approve of hiring self-proclaimed ex-hackers as
    >> security professionals. By and large, they have not "paid their debts." There
    >> is no evidence or behaviour that would lead you to conclude they have reformed
    >> their ways.
    >> Disclosure: I'm planning on attending the CSI conference (if upper management
    >> approves the travel request).
    >> <lurk>
    >> --- Paul D. Robertson wrote:
    >> >
    >> > This year's CSI conference features the self-advancing "Catch me if you
    >> > can" guy, Frank Abagnale as a keynote speaker.
    >> >
    >> > Because of this, one of my co-workers, Bill Murray, has withdrawn from
    >> > speaking, as has Howard Schmidt with the "people who commit felonies
    >> > shouldn't profit from the results of their nefarious deeds, let
    >> > alone be sponsored by the security industry" train of thought[1].
    >> >
    >> > Bill's done the same before with a different organization advancing Kevin
    >> > Mitnick in the past. Personally, I think it's fantastic that there are
    >> > still people in this world who are willing to take the moral high ground,
    >> > and hold it.
    >> >
    >> > <snip>
    >> =====
    >> Mike Smith
    >> "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe."
    >> H.G. Wells - The Outline of History
    >> ______________________________________________________________________
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    A> _______________________________________________
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    <===========End of original message text===========

    Best regards,
    firewall-wizards mailing list

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