RE: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation

MHawkins_at_TULLIB.COM
Date: 11/02/04

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    To: mvitorovic@nil.si, firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com, firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:10:45 -0500

    Hi Miha,

    you said: "Yes, a criminal looses his rights when he is in jail, but he gets
    them back when he does his time. Including the right to have a job he likes,
    not a job someone else thinks he ought to have."

    That's not exactly true. Many courts around the world impose various
    measures to ensure that people do not repeat offend and or that they do not
    endanger society, the public and or individuals. The idea that people are
    completely free of any incumbrance the moment they walk out of jail is
    simply untrue.

    Some examples:

    Pedarists are required to stay atleast X yards away from schools.
    Some drunk drivers who kill on the road do time and THEN are only permitted
    to drive to work.
    Armed robbers are NOT permitted to own a gun - EVER.
    Company office holders cannot become incorporated and cannot hold public
    company positions.
    Lawyers are disbarred.
    Politicians must resign and cannot hold public office again.

    And the list goes on.

    I wrote a virus myself once (of the MS word macro variety) and could have
    unleashed it on the unsuspecting world. I have had many, many HUGE
    opportunities to hack into external systems. I have had many many
    opportunities to leave time bombs over the years. I have had the opportunity
    to access the systems of past employers and do untold damage. However, by
    NOT doing these things I demonstrated strong ethical judgement and
    responsibility as most of us in the networking/infosce community do.

    Mitnick and co. demonstrated poor ethical judgement and carried out illegal
    activities which they, for the most part and to this day, consider a public
    service.

    In my opinion, having been convicted of perpetrating an information crime,
    these people should be required to find alternative employment. If the
    courts (who are simply behind the eight ball on this) won't apply such
    punitive and or corrective action then our voices in the wider infosec
    community are needed to ensure that our own industry does not fall into
    disrepute and is discredited. The corruptive influence of establishing
    former convicted felons as luminaries in our industry is dangerous and
    cannot be advocated.

    Mike Hawkins
    (The opinions presented in this email are my own and reflect no opinion held
    by any other party or individual, implied or inferred).

    -----Original Message-----
    From: firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
    [mailto:firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com]On Behalf Of Miha
    Vitorovic
    Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 AM
    To: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com;
    firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
    Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation

    > I am concerned by your argument that a criminal should be able
    > to profit from their crime instead of being forced to find another
    > way to make a living. Mr. Mitnik could make a living selling cars,
    > for example. I also think that you are off when describing Mr.
    > Ranum as a one-trick pony. I suspect that he would have been quite
    > successful in other businesses (though I don't envision him selling
    > cars--maybe raising trick ponies).

    I see this point come up again and again throughout this thread. "Mitnik
    should choose another line of work, for me, _the security expert_, to be
    happy." Why? Why don't we all start selling cars? Because we don't want
    to. But Mitnik has to? Why? Yes, a criminal looses his rights when he is
    in jail, but he gets them back when he does his time. Including the right
    to have a job he likes, not a job someone else thinks he ought to have.

    And another thing I see in most of the letters is: "My security advice is
    just as good as Mitnik's." Which to me, also means, "Well, obviously then,
    his advice is just as good as yours.", but the authors somehow think that
    theirs is better. And, some of them are right. But, all of them? Hmm...

    And, again and again, in the end it comes down to money. "Hey, he's making
    money! Stop him! That's money I was supposed to make!" But, people with
    money choose to give it to him. Again, it's their money, they can give it
    to anyone they like.

    What I'm trying to say is, that so far, I haven't seen a single point that
    would convince me that having Mitnik as a speaker is a bad thing. But I
    have seen an awful lot of bruised egos.

    Party on,

    Miha Vitorovic
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