RE: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

From: Alan Holmes (alan_at_tympaniinc.com)
Date: 10/30/04

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    To: <firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:07:05 -0500

    Just curious,

    In Mitnick's case, who were the victims that you would pay restitution to?
    Not one of the corporations that claimed damages actually reported the
    losses in their annual report. Based on that, Scott McNealey should be
    sharing a jail cell with Martha Stewart and consequently no one should ever
    listen to Mr. McNealey speak again, because after all, if he signed an
    annual report that didn't reveal losses the size of what Sun claimed due to
    Mitnick copying the source code then, he is a criminal.

    The message I got from the original post wasn't whether reformed black hats
    are good or bad or can even be reformed but that some people still have a
    strong conviction in their own beliefs and are willing to forego $$$ in
    exchange for standing behind those beliefs. I think that is a very admirable
    trait and something that is quite rare today.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
    [mailto:firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com] On Behalf Of Mark Teicher
    Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 1:19 PM
    To: Paul D. Robertson; Paul Foster
    Cc: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com; jseanor@avaya.com
    Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

    Actually there is difference between Frank Abigale and Mitnick. After
    serving a portion of his time, Frank Abigale went to work in designing
    systems that are currently in use today. Mitnick, on the other hand, has
    not contributed at that scale to help improve any of the systems he
    supposedly broke into it, except to jump start a fledging security industry
    in taking an interest in the types of ways Mitnick was successful in
    defeating the security systems in place at the time. The Telecommunications
    providers have yet to make all the recommended security improvements that
    allowed Mitnick to accomplish what he did. Let's take a look at other
    people who suffered the same sort of fate. Intel vs Randall Schwartz
    (1993), Randal spoke at SANS a while back about his case on "What not to do
    as a System Administrator". It was a very good talk, getting back on topic,
    having former criminal speak at conference is not a crime, and they should
    be rewarded for it, and there should be big statements, like this speaker's
    honorium/fee is being collected to pay restitution to their victims.

    /m

    -----Original Message-----
    From: "Paul D. Robertson" <paul@compuwar.net>
    Sent: Oct 29, 2004 1:16 PM
    To: Paul Foster <Paul.Foster@dmtsystems.net>
    Cc: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
    Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

    On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Paul Foster wrote:

    > > To my mind the issue is that he's still *profiting* from his crimes.
    > > That doesn't do justice to the victims, nor does it send the right
    > > message IMO. Crime should not pay.
    >
    > How so? He talks about how he would exploit security systems, and
    > this is his area of expertise. The guy spent many enjoyable years in
    > jail (on his knees?) which does not sound like 'crime pays' to me.

    It's also his area of criminality. That's not a good message- there are
    *plenty* of good guys who have the same expertise who haven't created
    victims who can give out the same information.

    It worries me socially that the royal we tend to put these folks on
    pedestals when they're nothing more than confidence tricksters who have no
    special information or skills.

    >
    > > I think that the fettering should include profiting from whatever
    > > badness the person did- hey, if he was lecturing on IPv6 security,
    > > then I don't see as much of an issue.
    >
    > Perhaps he doesn't know squat about IPv6. If we prevent him from
    > legally earning a buck on issues he does know, we could inadvertently
    > be encouraging use of those skills illegally.

    IMO, society would be better served if we *really* rehabilitated them.
    Having them stand up in front of people and proclaim how great they were
    when they were doing illegal activities seems to run counter-productive to
    that to me.

    He doesn't know squat about IPv6 because we're letting him cruise on
    notoriety rather than making him go get a real job that doesn't profit from
    his criminality. And yes, if he's so bent on doing wrong than on doing the
    right thing, then let's let him commit more crime, and lock him up again-
    because that means he's not reformed and shouldn't be out of jail.

    > > I hope that in the future, CSI chooses its keynote speakers more
    > > carefully.
    >
    > Should we bury our heads in the sand and not learn from people like this?

    You can learn all there is to learn without paying them princely sums and
    celebrating notoriety. There's both more value in what Howard Schmidt and
    Bill Murray say than in what Abignale and Mitnick say, and a better overall
    message for the industry and society to send by using them.

    Paul
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -
    Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal opinions
    paul@compuwar.net which may have no basis whatsoever in fact."
    probertson@trusecure.com Director of Risk Assessment TruSecure Corporation
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