RE: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

MHawkins_at_TULLIB.COM
Date: 10/29/04

  • Next message: Paul Foster: "[fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry" 
    To: Paul.Foster@dmtsystems.net, firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:13:38 -0400

    Paul,

    You use the term boycott but you have jumped an important ethical question
    on your way to your opinion.

    In order to disagree with the action of boycotting you would have to first
    answer this question.

    Are members of a group permitted to use various public actions to ostracize
    felons in order to demonstrate your personal opposition to actions committed
    by the felon that offend your moral or ethical view?

    And by extension: Does "boycotting" fall into the acceptable category of
    "actions"?

    My position would be, in this particular context, boycotting a conference
    would have to be about the most benign form of making a statement I can
    think of in todays world but it would definitely be a valid method for
    expressing ones opinion.

    A balance needs to be made between ineffectiveness and brutality. So let me
    see, should we accept video taping the cutting off of infidels heads as a
    valid form of protest? Clearly NO, but that does not mean that we can't
    boycott a conference. If only al-zarqawi would take this viewpoint.

    The idea that Mitnick and his ilk are somehow completely innoculated from
    further "harassment" (my word) in the form of a boycott of a conference
    because "they have done their time" is also flawed. To me, that is like
    saying that Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin (or any other non contrite criminal)
    are somehow forgiven for doing time for their crimes - even though they
    continue to publicly stand by their actions as justified (usually cleverly
    presented with wrapped up in a moral eqivalency argument). The justice
    system can mete out punishment but it is the public who make their opinions
    known regarding various unwanted behaviors in the community and there are
    various tools available to the public to do this. That would definitely
    include non attendance at conferences and publicly voicing the reason why.

    If Mitnick and co. had simply chosen a new career and moved on with their
    lives, fully accepting that their actions were criminal, then I think, there
    wouldn't be a need for people in the industry to be boycotting conferences.
    But as it is, Mitnick and co. continue to peddle their nefarious actions
    trying to portray their criminal destructive behavior as something less
    deplorable than what they were. What's more, Mitnick and others like him are
    actually trying (and look like they do) MAKE A BUCK out of their criminal
    noteriety. This is perhaps comparable to a sex predator who does time for
    molestation of children but who then gets out of jail and proceeds to make a
    living producing porn movies with children. The original criminal action was
    wrong, the person should be completely humble (and largely silent) in public
    and should certainly not attempt to try to justify what they did. Ofcourse,
    this all assumes that you believe in the rule of law and trust the justice
    system to get it right. I find alot of people have difficulty with this.
    Nevertheless, I do not believe that felons should be given the kind of voice
    that Mitnick has. His opinions are discredited because they are blighted by
    his record.

    I applaud those who have chosen to boycott the conference. Mitnick brings a
    bad name upon all of us every day that he and his ilk continue on working in
    this industry. A black hat will always be a black hat no matter how much
    white washing you try to do.

    Mike Hawkins
    (The opinions presented in this email are my own and reflect no opinion held
    by any other party or individual, implied or inferred).

    -----Original Message-----
    From: firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
    [mailto:firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com]On Behalf Of Paul
    Foster
    Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 3:44 AM
    To: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
    Subject: [fw-wiz] Re: Ethics, morality and the industry

    I personally feel that this form of boycott is a really bad idea.

    Individuals such as Abagnale and Mitnick have done the time for their
    crimes, why do we continue to persecute them? I'd argue that this type
    of condemnation is immoral and unethical, they must be given the chance
    to engage and positively contribute to society.

    I would expect security professionals to be especially practical about
    the matter. If released felons cannot use their existing skills within
    the law, what can we expect them to do? It is harder to reskill, so
    there is a significant likelihood of them reoffending. That outcome is
    counter-productive to security.

    These individuals took the wrong path and paid the price. Let's learn
    from them, both practically and about the factors that motivated them to
    cross the line. Hopefully we can convince others to use their skill
    productively rather than becoming 'the enemy'.

    -PF

    > Message: 3
    > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT)
    > From: "Paul D. Robertson" <paul@compuwar.net>
    > To: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
    > Subject: [fw-wiz] Ethics, morality and the industry
    >
    > This year's CSI conference features the self-advancing "Catch me if you
    > can" guy, Frank Abagnale as a keynote speaker.
    >
    > Because of this, one of my co-workers, Bill Murray, has withdrawn from
    > speaking, as has Howard Schmidt with the "people who commit felonies
    > shouldn't profit from the results of their nefarious deeds, let
    > alone be sponsored by the security industry" train of thought[1].
    >
    > Bill's done the same before with a different organization advancing Kevin
    > Mitnick in the past. Personally, I think it's fantastic that there are
    > still people in this world who are willing to take the moral high ground,
    > and hold it.
    >
    > There's an interesting blurry line between doing things for good, and
    > doing things that may be good or bad. Hence I've mixed emotions about
    > people putting together tools that really tend to have more value to the
    > masses of bad guys than they do to the good guys. We know tunneling is
    > bad, we know it's an issue, and we don't need more tunnels to prove it-
    > let alone ones that are script-kiddie enabled to go through the
    > perimeter. Maybe there's a grouping of "definitely good people,
    > definitely bad people and sorta mixed in the middle" that I keep in my
    > mind- certainly, I try to associate with "definitely good people." Maybe
    > it's time I hung up a "Please don't feed the script kiddies" sign?
    >
    > Anyway, I just figured I'd hop up on the soapbox and tip my hat to Bill
    > Murray and Howard Schmidt. Keeping your moral compass pointing in the
    > right direction is a good thing. We're an industry built on trust and
    > ethics, and even if you don't particularly agree with someone's morality,
    > it's not a bad thing to respect that they'll hold their ethics- it's easy
    > to be ethical when nothing's on the line, the test is when you stand to
    > lose something.
    >
    > Mostly, I just wanted to publicly voice my support for
    > these gentlemen's actions, which to me speak much louder than words.
    >
    >
    > Paul
    >
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -
    > Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal
    opinions
    > paul@compuwar.net which may have no basis whatsoever in fact."
    > probertson@trusecure.com Director of Risk Assessment TruSecure Corporation
    >
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